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On 12/18/2020 at 11:30 PM, =VG= 0100011000101 said:

that is a very complex thing. I don't want to dismiss the arguments because they are predominantly true. I see several reasons why it is very difficult to change this.

Hi Binary, 

There are lots of reasons why but I don't, and I refuse to believe it difficult to change. I have already seen changes! Veteran players are helping new players a lot more. I've witnessed it and I think it is "f'n" awesome. It was a few days ago when a "newbie" joined the squad. I think it MAD leading. The newbie didn't have a clue. Didn't know how to do anything. MAD told him some basics and the rest of the squad jumped in and helped him. In that 1 hour match, the "newbie" had the support of the whole squad. We all explained, pointed out where to look, how to use the controls. He didn't get everything right the first time but he tried and at the end of the match, you could hear in his voice how overwhelmed he was by the support he got from strangers. So different from the normally toxic world of online gaming.  When the match ended I felt empowered! I helped to make a great PR player, one day. For me, it didn't matter if we lost the flag, got pushed back a flag, what mattered was giving this new player the support and understanding needed to grow our player base. 

Please don't misunderstand. I am not trying to stop your enjoyment of the game. I was sharing my experience since returning to PR and VG after a 8-year break. Things changed since back then. Since coming back, a steep learning curve for an old man like me. If it were not for players like Zee, Whiskey, and Alucard to name a few,  I would have lost interest out of sheer frustration.  Players like 22, Ranger, Volod are so toxic to new players.  There, I said it. All accomplished players but do nothing to promote the game or players. Just here for fun and when others get it wrong, scream bloody murder. I think most here will attest to the fact that when I came back I SUCKED at the game. Some might say I still do. There were so many changes, I was overwhelmed. 
For new players, the task of playing PR on VG with its strict rules is daunting at best. There are no games like this with such a strong presence of rule enforcement. I think new players quickly become overwhelmed and move on. And that worries me with respect to the future of PR. I think if we like this game so much we need to start promoting it. Be less selfish about having a game to dominate while "bitching" about newbies. We all want to play with TOP players. We won't have them if we intimidate them with rules and not help them to understand them

I strongly agree that a training server would help. Do you know of any? Is there some magical server that doesn't come up on the list we can send people to VG boot camp? 
Binary, I am not asking you to stop enjoying the game. Just understand if we don't grow the player base you will be here flying CAS over an empty battleground wondering where the infantry is. Mate, one in ten matches, just one in ten. Lead a squad. Teach. If everyone does that, VG will have the best PR players period.

B Positive not A Negative

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Engagement with New Players and those keen to be part of exceptional Team play experiences has always been the bedrock of what has made this Community the Best of the Best.

Sometimes however this needs to be reitierated and addressed.

Fundamentals need to be acknowledged and reaffirmed.

I was just about to give up on playing this game when several other likeminded team enthusiasts and I came across this Unique  Command Centre That Bludklot built!!!

That was way back in 2010...

Long may it continue.

Big thanks to all the selfless VG Team Members and Friends that keep this dream alive and uphold the creed that is still a beacon to all other gamers and clans out there.

 

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To be honest this PR server has not changed that much since I came here. Players come and go, VG members also come and go, so there's no recipe that will make our server the "perfect" environment. Singling out admins because they don't quite fit your own "sense" of how PR should be played is a pretty subjective thing to do. It takes all sorts to run a team, squad and its not going to suit everyone on EVERY map or situation. As far as I know those players Sciddles complained about have not broken any rules, until they do its unfair to imply that they do not deserve to be here. We have a competent team of admins who are answerable to our admin guidelines which are comprehensive, and we look into any "serious" complaints about our admins but please check your opinions against our rules before you accuse other players of "un-acceptable" behaviour.

Our rules cover most in game incidents that occur but admins also have more information that helps them to make decisions about situations that fall into grey areas.

We are all brothers in arms, lets just get on with it and play the game. Cheers.

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Reading this makes me miss PR. I was really starting to enjoy infantry just before I went on vacation, can’t wait to come back to do some more!!

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On 12/22/2020 at 6:12 AM, Connor said:

Reading this makes me miss PR. I was really starting to enjoy infantry just before I went on vacation, can’t wait to come back to do some more!!

Hope to see ya back soon

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Disappointing

Map: Al Basrah
Server Population: When I joined 8 and grew to 18 near the end.

A tough map with 8 players. When I joined there was a CAS squad, an APC squad, and an INF squad with a couple of people in it.  I opted to join APC. As you can imagine, it was back and forth cap move to the next just to lose the previous one. It went on like this for a while until the population grew. There were a lot of new players as well as a few seasoned ones. At one point in the match, a member of the APC squad said in chat, "that should send them back to base" The SL asked and the player explained he had put a round into the CAS to send them back to base because all they were doing was stealing kills. I wasn't impressed and felt it a very wrong thing to do. (no admins on at that time) It was only a couple of minutes later that the same APC player that was putting a "heat" round into CAS to force them to return to base noticed that the next map would be impossible for the team we had. So he got on Discord to ask for a map change. Wasn't long before an Admin joined and CAS right away reported the CAS shooting. The player was warned and the behavior stopped. 
A short time later, while defending a capped flag a spandril showed up and I was pumping heat rounds into it to destroy it. A couple more shots would have taken it out and BOOM, CAS flew over and took the kill. I asked CAS why and they said "a kill is a kill". I said, "And you wonder why you were getting shot with heat rounds!"
The match continued and we were on the second last flag. I was moving up from the refinery after I had been defending it when we lost residential. I thought it odd because we had CAS up and would have easily taken out anything trying to cap it back. Two ACP's raced to residential to recap it, CAS nowhere in sight.  A humvee arrived to help cap and agreed to defend it. I moved up to apartments to help CAP because the cap wasn't moving. The image is what I saw when I arrived. CAS was camping the broken spawn point. 
I know we are all here to have fun but in this match, CAS was having all the fun at the expense of every other player in the game. CAS kill count was 245 at the end of the game. I thought back to the warning that was handed out wondering who should have been warned!
IMO this is disappointing especially when it was a seasoned pilot at the controls who with regularity complains in-game and in TS about the behavior, lack of skill, and the gameplay of others. 
 

spawncampCAS.png

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Whats the difference between that scene and this one m8 posted on discord? Do they really need that much firepower to cover a spawn point?

albasrah.thumb.JPG.0fb5d5913f6517f21527d8044e102f50.JPG

Like I suggested earlier try it with an infantry squad, one or two grunts tops can handle that spawn point rofl!

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15 hours ago, Sciddles said:

A couple more shots would have taken it out and BOOM, CAS flew over and took the kill

The concept of 'kill-stealing' shouldn't be a thing in PR. I myself usually shoot anything at the frontlines if I can kill it without damaging friendlies. Probably 'stole' dozens of kills because I'm not gonna verify if someone else is pumping lead into them. We play to capture the area and to win the map. We can either play to win the game together or to score as many points for ourselves as possible, but not both simultaneously. Kill-whores should be nailed to crosses or play a different game. Just my opinion.

 

15 hours ago, Sciddles said:

CAS was camping the broken spawn point. 

That's spawncamping. Camping is mostly illegal for good reasons. Did anyone report CAS for this? Please remember that spawnraping and camping is not allowed except in certain situations to win the map. This was not one of them, CAS was way more useful elsewhere to guard flags. If it's blatant camping/rape, don't be afraid to bring it to our attention.

 

Now more often than not, poorly efficient situations like this occur because of bad communication between squad leaders. Did the APC leader make his plans clear? I'm not saying it's APC's fault, just that there is often a "they should know this"-attitude when nobody made an initial request to begin with. Always ensure that proper communication was made before we point at people for not cooperating.

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CAS was doing a semi okay job of guarding flags at a point, but it becomes clear that as time progresses, their main focus lies on finding flocks of enemies to blow up, and a rather lackluster way of keeping their bird alive (honestly, why do people keep 20 meters between them and the enemy? It's an Apache. This should be considered waste). The kicker of this round comes when CAS is bored at base though.

 

5fe804d6380e6_2020-12-2704_51_21-https___yossizap.github.io_realitytracker_.png.721782b691908d38079d008a4a322f32.png

This is CAS pilot drilling a hole into CAS gunner's brain with an L85. Teamkill in main base is not appreciated, and appropriate action will be taken.

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6 hours ago, =VG= Acro1 said:

That's spawncamping. Camping is mostly illegal for good reasons. Did anyone report CAS for this? Please remember that spawnraping and camping is not allowed except in certain situations to win the map. 

Not quite correct, you can camp spawn points so long as they are not outside the flag that is being capped. I thought you knew that?

 

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6 hours ago, =VG= Acro1 said:

Now more often than not, poorly efficient situations like this occur because of bad communication between squad leaders. Did the APC leader make his plans clear? I'm not saying it's APC's fault, just that there is often a "they should know this"-attitude when nobody made an initial request to begin with. Always ensure that proper communication was made before we point at people for not cooperating.

When Blizzard joined the server to change the map he made comment to CAS about the camping which was, for the most part, ignored. The APC team and SL made comments to CAS about their gameplay which was also ignored, laughed at. "A kill is a kill." 

AL Basrah has a broken spawn point which is exploited a lot, but someone has to watch the spot until the palace is neutral. 

IMO CAS knew what they were doing was wrong and had their "fun" at everyone else's expense.  My disappointment stems from the fact the CAS pilot is a veteran player who knows better and is often critical of others be it for gameplay, lacking skills, or just being new to the game. 

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8. Camping

Farming kills by camping spawns and enemy assets is forbidden. Including:

  • Knifing/camping enemy assets. Every attempt must be made to destroy any enemy asset as long as it complies with the baserape rules.
  • Attacking enemy infantry spawn points

Enemy infantry spawns may only be attacked when they are inside the current flag capture radius. - <--- please pay attention to this.

If players lose the flag at the palace due to the bots spawning on a broken spawn point its up to the players at Palace to fall back and recap Appartments, so technically CAS was not doing anything wrong.

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The second time I ask you to introduce a rule-to call CAS only at the request of the INF squadleaders, recon scouts and commander (with the exception of game modes where the dogfights are provided, applies only to jet fighters!)

 

 

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in addition:

an experienced CAS veteran pilot with an equally experienced operator, destroying all enemy AA on the map, hovering at an altitude of 300-500 meters, is able to methodically shoot enemy infantry and burn enemy assets on approaches to white or already controlled flags. The allied infantry will only have to be present in the capture zone of the flag, without a single shot, and then simply move to the next flag. I really want to avoid such moments in the game.

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2 hours ago, =VG= Kavelenko said:

Not quite correct, you can camp spawn points so long as they are not outside the flag that is being capped

This is true, but Apartments was not the currently capturable flag during most of that spawncamping. Now I did notice that Apartments seems to be the point where 95% of the enemy team spawns, whereas I thought they did more so at Palace. Since the bots would recap Apartments (yes?) if left unchecked, it does need to be guarded. Still think ground-based units (who have actual capping power) would be better for this though. CAS can shoot but if they miss a body and the flag goes neutral, someone's gonna have to fall back anyway.

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No I think you'll find that you cannot cap Palace unless Apartments is capped but the problem with that flag is that bots will still spawn on that particular point even when Apartments is capped which can become a problem if Palace is not capped quickly. The spawn point at Apartments is no more broken than the spawn points on Kashan Desert's North Village where they keep spawning well after the flag has been capped. Either way the rule about spawn camping still stands provided its done inside the cap zone of the flag that is currently being capped. The intent of the rule about spawn camping was to stop people setting up on spawn points that are NOT inside the cap zone and farming kills. Sure using a CAS chopper seems OP but then I would also consider 2 APCS, IFV and two .50cal HMMVs OP as well but its not outside of the rules we currently enforce.

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5 hours ago, =VG= Skitalez said:

The second time I ask you to introduce a rule-to call CAS only at the request of the INF squadleaders, recon scouts and commander (with the exception of game modes where the dogfights are provided, applies only to jet fighters!)

 

 

gonna be bad when all we got is non communicating inf, who can't mark shi*t on map

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About kill steal, i think it's fair game, otherwise that precious seconds can get any friendly assets destroyed by the opposing asset (not just CAS 'stea'l other's kill but in between tank sq members that are engaging same target as well for example)

Another example is when both CAS heli & APC engange the same Shilka, with APC dumping a few rounds already, it's only logical for CAS to kill it A.S.A.P, because otherwise the Shilka will be more than likely to switch it's attention towards said CAS and proceeds to kill it in a matter of miliseconds..

It's a different thing if the 'kill stealer' intentionally going for other's kill when he himself should have taken care of something else instead.
For example CAS in Muttrah large should prioritize taking out mortars most of the time if the mortars are active instead of trying to kill armor/inf and raking up kills because CAS is the only asset that can reasonably take out the mortars efficiently with the least amount of risk

About apt. spawn on basrah, it's totally broken, you can get 60+ in less than 5 min. you can basically keep  shooting every half a second and bots won't even have a cance to aim at you, let alone escape.
a good CAS crews could even cover both apt. & palace at the same time without any real trouble.

In the end, if everything was still under control & everyone was doing their intended roles without breaking any rules, it goes down to opportunity, experience, communication, and sometimes luck

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I fly(rarely gun) CAS a lot and because it's boring for me as a pilot & because I want to actually have some fun with my gunner, unless explicitly asked to do so & only to kill vehicles or help cap flags, I don't like to hover & rarely hover above 150, so as a matter of course I'd like to think I know how to stop people in my position farming kills. 

 

Simple approach would be to reduce the altitude limit for CAS helis, which for the uninitiated already exists, if you go above a certain altitude in a heli, you'll take damage, reducing it to a 100m altitude ceiling should be fairly reasonable in COOP with higher altitudes attainable for short durations similar to combat areas, so again nothing new, it's a simple value change for Melon to consider should he choose to do so, as in COOP, PvP configs are down right stupid.  And hopefully the extended range & no exit statics make it (back) into an update, they were a bitch, but actually made doing CAS interesting&&fun at the very least & killed off campers expediently.

tldr;  Lower max altitude ceiling for CAS helis, which makes them more likely to get shot at, which reduces time on station before needing to rtb for repairs, which makes them more likely to go boom, which in turn makes them less likely to hover & so less likely to camp as they'll resort to low altitude orbits & flybys for kills which isn't an ideal camping environment, and so makes for a more  target rich environment for everyone not in CAS, you don't change the laws of thermodynamics to put out a fire, you deprive a fire of fuel or oxygen to stop it dead, same principle here, just simpler...

 

As for team work, it can not be forced by rules however structured, what sets PR apart from other games like it, including Arma, is forced SYSTEMIC cooperation, such that it's gameplay systems unique to PR like kit & asset restrictions, that increase the likely hood of cooperation & to systems we must look not rules, where for brevity, any RULE so enforced algorithmically/automatically is implicitly a gameplay system, it's core value derived from it being omnipotent of sorts, unlike rules enforced by human admins.

 

Cheers.:acute:

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4 hours ago, TH0M said:

gonna be bad when all we got is non communicating inf, who can't mark shi*t on map

Sadly, I see more maps played where the entire team is struggling to communicate intentions, what is going well, what isn't going well...

As mentioned before, there are some spawn points where they are broken so you have to camp it, it is a "feature" that we have to add to the complexities of playing the game. We, as players compensate and have to move on.

Personally,  I don't like the "a kill is a kill", and should not be a competition between who can kill the most bots. If you play the game correctly,  as an infantryman fighting the flags in order you can still rack some impressive kills due to the game mechanics.  It has been discussed in the past to eliminate the scoreboard all together and that would eliminate that, but at what cost?

It would be nice to have a "call CAS as needed " feature, but let's be honest. How likely will that happen? How many players struggle to read the map, let alone mark where they are and identify target's from their location and call in assistance. Most people didn't know a map existed sadly and is part of my training I offer people. 

I do think the "warning of camping" needs to be enforced more so that the game is able to be played as VG set up the COOP side to be played.  Using TEAMWORK and COMMUNICATION to establish our dominance over bots. Learn some new tricks and techniques about the game. But most importantly,  have fun and meet some great players and some life long friends. 

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3 hours ago, =VG= m823us said:

It has been discussed in the past to eliminate the scoreboard all together and that would eliminate that, but at what cost?

That's not the issue, reset our game tracker stats and eliminate the incentive to spawn camp and base rape.

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I find it mind boggling that people care about their stats in PR?? The only reason I ever check my ‘stats’ is when I want to see my playtime. I haven’t met many people that do care or are at least open about them caring but if you disable these stats it can definitely stop toxicity from some types of players and stop this Call Of Duty mindset that we need to be top of the scoreboard in game and in GameTracker 

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