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Hoops0320

Canadian Kokan (CAS??) Heli

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Hey,

re. title:  Canadian Kokan (CAS??) Heli

I am slightly confused if this heli is considered a CAS asset or not as over my time of playing PR i have been told by multiple players and VG members that it is/isn't a CAS heli. I have also searched the forums for any existing answers to this and found nothing. 

I have been told it is a grey area and not quite yet decided. But it would be nice to know if it is or isn't so i don't have to be moaned at for using it as a trans or CAS. 

Cheers,

Hoops

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For reference: We are talking about the Griffon CAS helicopter on Kokan Alt.

 

It's one of those few grey area assets that have characteristics of both. As you mentioned, it's a Trans bird according to game files ( I believe it has a small crate as well?) but it is called 'Griffon CAS'.

90% of players I know including =VG= have agreed that Griffon CAS is a CAS helicopter. There's no 100% set-in-stone reason other than 'it just works well that way'. Similar to how French VABs are considered humvee-type assets despite having more seats and the ability to request kits from them.

 

Kokan Alt benefits more from 1 trans Chinook and 1 CAS bird with guns in the sky than it would from 2 transport helicopters. That's a large part of the reasoning behind this.

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It also only has four seats, of which two need pilot kits. it makes a terrible trans bird with only two seats.

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What kind of firepower are we talking?  Like the CAS Huey on Muttrah?  Rockets and LASER Designator? M2's on the doors? That matters....  The Canadian Griffon CAS is literally a Huey multi-role variant.

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Pilot with no arms, Copilot with FLIR, left door gun, and right door gun, both miniguns. Its like the Marine CAS huey on muttrah minus the rockets and plus a light crate.

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In real life Canada does not have any attack helicopter that fit the role of what a cas heli is, the griphon was designed in two types one to transport and one to provide Aerial escorts to other helicopter dropping off troops or for evacs, it's a defensive role. That's why it doesnt fit well in pr because we just kill and dont provide real life scenarios.

For the game tho it is a cas helicopter, it's simple for me, if it has a cas symbol in the map loading screen or drop down menu its cas.

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Sounds like it's unlike most other assets, rather unique like that.  We don't have a Multi-Role CAS class.... MRCAS? Nah, that's just too confusing... Maybe the ruling should be "not a ruling", like either is fine.  But I get that clarification would be helpful, everyone wants to know the rules so they can follow them and not get into debates in-game.  Thoughts?

This makes a good point:

54 minutes ago, =VG= Vanillapop said:

For the game tho it is a cas helicopter, it's simple for me, if it has a cas symbol in the map loading screen or drop down menu its cas.

That being said, no issue for a CAS chopper with few teeth to drop a crate if needed/able, or take one or two guys to where they need to go, again by Pilot's choice.... But a flying mini-gun that you can basically put anywhere = if it's of little use to you, get a better gunner - same as all CAS with pilot/gunner roles - it's got the tools to kill, and takes pilot skill to survive.  Sounds like normal CAS to me, just no rockets/missiles.

Edited by =VG= SemlerPDX
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Kokan has many flat fields that the enemies cross constantly. This is where a good Griffon CAS team can do real damage and halt an attack. Even if hovering high and far for safety, you can just pick off the blips. (After checking map, duh)

 

As mentioned, the bird has only co-pilot and doorgunner seats. The damage it can do as dedicated CAS far outweighs the logistical / transport role it ever could. Kokan has plenty of vehicles and transport isn't very oftenly called in general.

 

There needs to be a ruling, so that everyone (or at least the vast majority) acts accordingly. Having a 'neither CAS nor trans' bird is only going to cause confusion and frustrated honest players. This is why for ease and maximum effectiveness, the 'soft' consensus is that the Griffon is a CAS asset.

 

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Under PR naming scheme in the editor its uses transport helicopter tags. Unless there been a update in passed couple months it's icons are Both that of a Medium Transport on the asset list whilst having Medium Attack icon on the ingame map. There is also another heli that is trans asset that uses the medium attack icon (name escapes me). But this is due to PR classing recon helicopters with no weaponry as Attack Helicopters

"Attack Helicopters: ... Recon helicopters with the ability to laze targets and use their thermal cameras also fall under this category in PR:BF2. They are not always armed."  https://realitymod.gitbook.io/pr-manual/en/the_basics#basic-vehicle-information

 

 

Griffin is currently only on 1 layers. Everyone already treats it as CAS and would cause more pointless arguements and problems in-game if changed.

 

 

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Then the proper role name for the squad will be "CAS" and even though, the CAS Pilot may choose it his own discretion to drop a crate or transport a couple people - that being said, the vehicle may NOT be chosen to be dedicated to the TRANS role indefinitely under a CAS Squad Name - it should be an exception to the standard, not a pass to run TRANS exclusively.  It is a Multi-role vehicle, after all, unique in that way, so play the asset like that - do your CAS, keep on your cross squad comms, remember you have a valuable crate if TRANS goes down or is busy/already tasked and you're in a position willing to help.  What could be cooler than that?

Listen, whatever you all decide is okay, but this will remain a CAS asset with options, and will be causing issues if it tries to run only TRANS - this just doesn't seem like one of those rule edit situations, just a "spread the word" cuz it's pretty obvious by the loadout and lack of seats that it's a CAS multi-role more than it is a TRANS multi-role.

Just a little off topic, I used to run CAS nearly exclusively when there were enough boots to field the infantry, as a pilot mostly, but also LOVED the CAS Huey on Muttrah, and could tear shit up with a good gunner, and work with the Cobra CAS by swooping areas it may not want to enter just for recon, and later LASING... this Griffon sounds SO COOL and I think I would LOVE running a multi-role CAS, putting those mini-guns where they'd really help, and listening in on SL Comms for any requests when things aren't too busy for CAS.  That is a tight vehicle for PR!! Teamwork to the max!

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Technically it is a CAS asset. That's how the PR developers set the asset, and that's final.

Is it a CAS chopper? Sure, but with 2 side miniguns that pilot can't use.

Can I transport people? Yes, but only 2 people who will be using miniguns, and no supply drop at all.

 

Personally I wouldn't care all that much if someone makes a TRANS squad and use the asset as a light transport, or CAS squad with a transporting small squad as a side job. I've seen few regulars use the asset and get 70+ kills in a single match without dying, so it can be useful at times but under very extreme circumstances.

If there's a case where someone makes a TRANS squad & take the asset, and someone creates a CAS squad and report it for being stolen, then technically CAS squad should have the priority to take the asset.

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2 hours ago, ZZANG1847 said:

If there's a case where someone makes a TRANS squad & take the asset, and someone creates a CAS squad and report it for being stolen, then technically CAS squad should have the priority to take the asset.

Fair enough.

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If I may... The Griffon CAS DOES INDEED have 1, one, single medium crate of the green variety. I agree that it should be treated as CAS. But CAS should be willing to drop said crate right quick if someone needs it. It's not suited well for trans in my opinion. 

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On 7.1.2020 at 4:07 AM, Golden said:

If I may... The Griffon CAS DOES INDEED have 1, one, single medium crate of the green variety. I agree that it should be treated as CAS. But CAS should be willing to drop said crate right quick if someone needs it. It's not suited well for trans in my opinion. 

+1 also the fact that this layer does feature a massive two big-box carrying behemoth of  a chinook that can spam crates all around the map, with a 5 minutes respawn and 7 seats for infantry, putting the trans capabilites of the griffon into a minor role. 

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Why not both? 

Actually in the info menu picture (loading screen Picture where you can see the assets) its defined as trans or you would see 2 helo Icons. 

Maybe i can bring more light into the darkness.

Ist because of pythoncodding.

The python checks the category of the Chopper. Trans has _the_ and CAS _ahe_.

Why? Because of the kits. 

A CAS Chopper need 2 pilotkits. Pilot and Gunner.

A Transport Chopper need only 1 pilotkit. For the Pilot only.

Sofar i remember was the python so generated to check for kit restrictions/requirements the vehicle categories and not for each asset names seperatly.

 Edit: Griffon is called in Editor : cf_the_ch146_m134 so technically a trans: Question: You need a Copilot kit? After old python rules you need not but maybe they changed also that over the time.

You all Love me now :air_kiss:

 

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4 hours ago, =VG= Fastjack said:

Why not both? 

Because confusion ;) Tomatoes are technically fruits, but due to their usual usage and the volume at which they are consumed/processed, they are considered vegetables by law in most countries. This is the best way, since they are optimally regulated, subsidised and taxed based on this usage behaviour.

 

Similarly, if we call this bird a Trans helo then the pilot's priority is transport and supplying. He must drop CAS activities and respond to trans calls ASAP.

On a map with a big-ass Chinook and considering that the Griffon has only gunner seats, it's superior role as dedicated CAS is evident.

 

But as said: Not both because we don't like confusion :P . We can't have some ppl punished for stealing and some not, but you know that already.

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Griffon is likely not going to transport squads, and nor should join the Trans squad, because on how the icon works for reference (Griffon is seen as Light CAS icon, instead of Light Trans icon)

 

Unless, if someone made a combination of Trans/CAS into one, the assets should all be claimed by the proper squad above. Please note that Chinook isnt recommended on flying static and provide fire-support with 3 door guns (miniguns and MMGs on ramp door, rarely), and also the fact its big size, its an easy target for bots with RPGs, Griffon is preferable for this case as it is a smaller target and more nimble than Chinook

 

I think the crates inside that Griffon should be removed on next update.. just for avoiding confusion among new players (idk, its just imo and some common sense of me)

 

- Inch

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... personally I don't care becuase im not flying...^^

 if it was often I was transported 8 or 10 times with such a chopper in the last two years... and then it was always cas that made an exception.

From the practical side I would say that this chopper must belong to cas, otherwise everyone will get confused.

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IMO, based on all provided information, this chopper is a CAS bird with optional TRANS capabilities, not the other way around.

It is one of the only true multi-role vehicles that fly, it would appear.  For that reason, it should be played as such, and PR Admins should not bother nit-picking in-game any use of this helicopter.  It should be up to the person who claimed the asset, and like every role, should coordinate and communicate with other squads.

This means no hovering over troops hoping someone wants to get a ride, no dropping off crates when not requested, not putting the asset at unnecessary risk to perform either of it's role tasks (don't waste the asset) and not using it to spawn camp OPFOR Main Bases irrespective of the flag cap order.

 

The preferred Squad Name for this asset should be the CAS Squad, though again, I really don't feel this should be a serious issue in game, and PR Admins may choose not to disrupt the flow and activity of the game to force a squad name change IF the asset is being used for Multi-Role operations..  That being said, if someone has the incorrect impression that this is solely either TRANS or CAS, and is only allowed to do activities in ONE of those roles based on their Squad Name, they need to be informed otherwise.

People should feel free to use this vehicle for both of it's capabilities.  It is very cool - not op, a bit under powered in both roles (but again, mini-guns with a good gunner will wipe a freaking map!) and should not become an in-game issue for discussion or debate among PR Admins, VG Members, or players.

 

Please enforce those ideals, in letter and spirit, moving forward.

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