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Kit-Stealing allowed?

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I have two questions about the serverrules ...
in the server rules asset-stealing is regulated quite well .. but whats about kit-stealing? On maps like shahadah, the individual kits are heavily regulated. Antitank or mg are very rare there and are often stolen. is this allowed?

and If I catch the thief and he does not want to give me my kit back, can I stop him from using my kit, for example by putting myself in his line of fire or boxing him? So, of course, not beating to death, but simply nerve him?

On maps like muttrah this is not so important but on some maps like shahahdah it can decide the whole game if a few players steal important kits.

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Kit stealing is not allowed and we try to enforce this as much as possible but it happens. You can not prove someone did but this is over ridden by the "don't be a dick" rule.

I would just do an admin report with the players name and wait for results. 

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I ended up kicking player Gachette  after  watching  Binary chase him around for a few minutes : )

Edited by =VG= STARK
Missing player name
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Normally I dont do that, but that was the third time in a few minutes that I had got my kit stolen. both, when I was reviving and when I died ... and when I wanted to go back to my body a couple of seconds later I saw Gachette who took my kit. I told him several times that he should give it back to me, first he said nothing at all and at some point he said "no" and then I just boxed him a few times until acro told me to never do that again ...
that was really annoying because the map was really hard and gachette trolls anyway always around and does what he wants.

thanks for kicking him;)

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Many of our rules were made after finding out that we needed to spell out certain common sense concepts.  Maybe we need to add something along the lines of "Return a kit if requested unless you yourself took it from the crate or other claim point" -- needs rewording and if there are any specifics that need to be added, help would be appreciated.

Enforcement may be difficult so we may need players to simply report for the logs and then report to forums if they did it often so we could get word to individuals and discourage kit stealing.  Particularly the special limited kits - that is so common sense people need to be made aware that ignorance is not an excuse.  If Admins are online, players should attempt to handle it themselves through chat or mumble, and/or mention that an Admin can get involved, and do so if they still won't comply.

Thoughts?

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Because of the inability to prove a kit being stolen, I resovle to gut feelings and verification by other players.

Or you could do it the german way: "Wenn zwei sich streiten, freut sich der dritte :lol:."

 

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44 minutes ago, Xenalite said:

Seems like a lot of these rules can be boiled down to 1: "don't be a dick".

Yep.

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this is another topic but maybe it makes sense to write at the joining page something like: "THIS IS NOT A TRAINING SERVER! if you disturb the game you can get a kick / ban." Read our rules on: " and it would not hurt to include kit-stealing in the rules. even if it is difficult to prove.
this will not stop player like gachette from doing that but when you enter the server you do not know that there are special rules. I also did a lot of nonsense at the beginning, because I was not aware of that and came over from bf2. which is a big kindergarten.
You are quickly admonished by admins but you just do not know how serious this server is. and on the other coop servers you can do more or less what you want because there are not even so many admins there as at vg.

I think it's good that many new players come into pr. half of them are really trying it and asking things or saying things like "I've never done that" or "may I do this or that", but the other half are first-person-shooter freaks who do not even notice that there is a completely different game going on around them.

4 hours ago, Xenalite said:

Seems like a lot of these rules can be boiled down to 1: "don't be a dick".

in the end yes. but many do not have the chance not to be a dick because they do not know what's going on. what you can even understand because bf and cod are so opened up that anyone can bother anyone. that's just EGO shooter and no team games ...

You have to be the first one on the car, or you have to walk. if I play bf2 now and stop my car for a stranger and say "jump in" he is totally confused because you do not do that there ...

5 hours ago, =VG= keed said:

Or you could do it the german way: "Wenn zwei sich streiten, freut sich der dritte :lol:."

the German way would probably rather the rules to tenfold, meticulously pay attention to it, put up signs everywhere and  wonder that you have no fun anymore ^^

 

 

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I have seen much of kit stealing these days.. including some certain maps with Volod.41..

 

Honestly, i had no clue what to do on a situation where's his HAT/AR/MG kit been accidentally/intentionally being stolen by one of (maybe) clueless/jerk players he confront of.. (these jerk players usually just trying to lure out the real out from him, so yeah.. obviously pissing him)

 

And usually, when out of the patience.. it always ended up with the TK'ing on the suspect (kit-stealer) and he claims back the kit (before i had seconds to ask the kit-stealer to drop it already, or do the !k/!kill command in instant-, since i know the !w doesn't work much for some players, so i had to do so). Some insult from him like, "you f**king noob, idiot etc." also came out afterwards sometimes.

 

I know that he's good player, knows what he's doing, but any ideas or ways to prevent/lowering chance of this problem in future? It's kinda tough for him nowadays, especially dealing with these players (new ones) if they don't listen what he was saying...

 

Like the actions is do better than the talking

 

and i would agree with Binary here:

1 hour ago, 0100011000101 said:

This is another topic but maybe it makes sense to write at the joining page something like: "THIS IS NOT A TRAINING SERVER! if you disturb the game you can get a kick / ban." Read our rules on: " and it would not hurt to include kit-stealing in the rules. even if it is difficult to prove.

Warning like this would actually do on the server info, before joining in server browser. Hopefully will made the people aware about the rules in-game.

 

I'm trying myself observing the chats/conversation (especially violations, like this kit-stealing) outside of the gameplay itself, and surely isn't an easy job to do..

 

- Inch

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I have a huge suspicion that someone is deliberately teamkilling volod and or stealing his kits. 

I and others noticed that when he gets Tked 2/10 times the player leaves. And if this happens it is like 8 times in 1 night. 

I have yet been able to confirm this.

 

Pending the original question. Kitstealing is simply the same as stealing an asset and should be kickable. Personally I see no issue when a person teamkills a person who is deliberately stealing a kit as it is impossible for an admin to keep track of this and kinda bullshit to wait to even see if they respond. 

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39 minutes ago, =VG= Double_13 said:

Personally I see no issue when a person teamkills a person who is deliberately stealing a kit as it is impossible for an admin to keep track of this and kinda bullshit to wait to even see if they respond. 

I agree with that. but if someone steals my kit and I tk him. then other players see a int teamkill and will report that.

that would only work with players that are known and which is clearly they do not int tks ... and that is difficult.

On the other hand, well-known players could write something like:
"for the logs: or !r player xxx give me back my kit NOW or i tk you to get it back !!!"
of course not via mumble but in the gamechat, so it is also get logged.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, =VG= Double_13 said:

I have a huge suspicion that someone is deliberately teamkilling volod and or stealing his kits. 

I and others noticed that when he gets Tked 2/10 times the player leaves. And if this happens it is like 8 times in 1 night. 

I have yet been able to confirm this. 

Easy. Check the logs if someone or even multiple people account for a suspicious amount of teamkilling him and then we can dig deeper. @=VG= SemlerPDX can you have a look if there's a conspicuous pattern? 

I doubt it but he sometimes appears to be a target. I certainly have noticed that. Envy?

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1 hour ago, 0100011000101 said:

I agree with that. but if someone steals my kit and I tk him. then other players see a int teamkill and will report that.

that would only work with players that are known and which is clearly they do not int tks ... and that is difficult.

On the other hand, well-known players could write something like:
"for the logs: or !r player xxx give me back my kit NOW or i tk you to get it back !!!"
of course not via mumble but in the gamechat, so it is also get logged.

I'm more in favor of report it and let the admins deal with it. It's our job. We can easily kill someone who stole your kit. I am not in favor of wild west shows. 

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To be fair yes jersans in theory this works perfectly but in reality it doesn’t always work as the admins might not see the report flashing by or are busy (flying or under fire).

With all the rules should be flexible. If someone steals your HAT shoots the tank and then gives it back fine. But it is more and more that people just take the kit and run off.

And then what? Your kit got stolen you gotta find the dudes name (we all know aiming at a dude long enough can show the name but rarely happens) you open the squad menu trying to find him and then you can’t find him cus he’s unassigned and GG you spend 2 min to report someone that the admins mostly won’t act against cus no proof. 

Shoot the guy to get him shouting cease fire is  a much quicker way. 

With all we need to be flexible with the rules, I understand that teamkilling is not allowed but sometimes it is the only way to keep the game going. 

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4 hours ago, =VG= Double_13 said:

Shoot the guy to get him shouting cease fire is  a much quicker way. 

With all we need to be flexible with the rules, I understand that teamkilling is not allowed but sometimes it is the only way to keep the game going. 

^don't listen to him, folks!


DO NOT ENCOURAGE PLAYERS TO INTENTIONALLY TEAMKILL OTHER PLAYERS WHO BREAK THE RULES NO MATTER WHAT THE SITUATION!!!!!!

This is not the solution, and will only cause greater disruptions to the game.  The only solution is to retrain our PR Admins to deal with this specific situation and to draw attention to the player(s) who are stealing kits and refusing to give them back when requested.  Like all infractions, the offending player must be identified, otherwise there is no recourse.  Yea, it sucks when good people have to take time out of their day to deal with some dick, but that's the nature of online video games.  As we move forward, we need to start identifying those who do not return kits, and we need to warn/kick those who do not comply, and ban those who intentionally teamkill to acquire a kit.


EDIT:  I am specifically referring to the problem as it pertains to specialist kits, as these are the kits that are not possible to reacquire through respawn or crate.

Edited by =VG= SemlerPDX
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Stealing  kits isn't defined specifically under any rule but can be filed as general misbehaviour, similar to randomly punching someone or blocking the base entrance with a truck. Its horrible teamplay and can be corrected accordingly. A player whose kit was stolen will always ask the other player to give it back. If they dont, its stolen. Any admin can reverse this theft by !killing the thief and warning them not to ever do that again. 

 

Just like other small misbehaviours, repetition can lead to a kick and an eventual ban. Small misdemeanors like this always get PLENTY of warning, so they cant complain about lack of information.

 

Finding someone's name can indeed be tricky, but looking at a person or the map is the only way of identification that we can allow. A quick pop shot with the 9mm would work if all players were reputable, skilled players with matching EQ scores. In reality, the popshot would quickly become a TK, a reverse TK, false reports etc... We must never stop enforcing the idea that shooting ANY friendly soldier is BAD, NO exceptions. 

 

@=VG= SemlerPDXSemlerPDX we can define kit theft as a paragraph under asset theft. You still have access to the rules document, right?

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7 hours ago, =VG= Double_13 said:

Pending the original question. Kitstealing is simply the same as stealing an asset and should be kickable. Personally I see no issue when a person teamkills a person who is deliberately stealing a kit as it is impossible for an admin to keep track of this and kinda bullshit to wait to even see if they respond. 

I don't agree entirely Double but I do understand the player's frustration. But where do you draw the line? Kits cannot be owned by anyone, if you are dead unless your medic revives you why should that kit remain yours because you happened to pick it from the crate before anyone else?

There's also the assumption that the guy who has a specialist kit actually knows how to use it properly. Do we let a complete noob "own" the HAT kit because he got it first and the whole squad gets blown to hell because he has no damn clue how to kill a tank? So there's a whole lot more to kits than simply saying don't steal kits. The squad leader should have the right to tell someone to drop their kit if they think that member is incompetent and someone who has the skills should be using it. If you have a squad of noobs then it doesn't matter. The issue on the VG server is limiting kits for the entire team once the noobs have grabbed the HAT kits and left them on the battlefield we're all left with buggarall to defend ourselves. Happens quite a lot, not when the server is full I'll admit.

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Good points, Kav.  So there is zero despawn for a specialist kit on a dead body out in the field?  Having that would help, but I can imagine it's in place for realism gameplay.

Would be nice if there were some Admin tools to deal with such examples.

 

 

3 hours ago, =VG= SemlerPDX said:


EDIT:  I am specifically referring to the problem as it pertains to specialist kits, as these are the kits that are not possible to reacquire through respawn or crate.

^added above to previous post for clarity

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11 hours ago, =VG= Kavelenko said:

I don't agree entirely Double but I do understand the player's frustration. But where do you draw the line?

I simply consider such set-backs as part of the game. 

It's not like in real life there's no fuck-ups or even intentional drama. There are also idiots in real life. When faced with any type of set-backs I typically try to resolve or salvage what I can at that point in time and then try to get all noses pointed in the right direction and find another way to complete the mission. 

Yes I acknowledge that it can be extremely frustrating and sometimes even devastating for my squad or the entire team but it is what it is and there typically are alternatives.

Like with real life situations wrongs typically don't get righted in the field but afterwards. Let's just promote the !r [name] kit-stealing solution calm everyone down and then focus on being creative to accomplish the mission ahead. 

My two cents.

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Infantry squad leads have always had the right to tell their members what kits to take, and the right to kick them out if they dont comply. You are free to choose who is in your infantry squad, though random discrimination isnt appreciated and if racism is suspected, actions can be taken.

 

When you request any kit, it  gets drawn from a 'pool' of kits.  When you die, the kit lays in the field until it despawns (takes a few mins). When it despawns, the kit gets added to the pool again to be requested from crates.

 

When a noob has eg the HAT kit, and we REALLY  need someone else to have it (or we lose the battle), an admin can !kill the person as this action is necessary to ensure playability, a fundamental administrator responsibility. In reality this will happen VERY RARELY, as this is the very last resort when all other options are not available (CAS, TOW, other sq,...)

Best would he to draw the line at the case mentioned above. If someone takes your medic, AR, marksman, ... kit, ask them to give it back and report to your squad leader and admins if they dont reply. Usually these same players will always perform little acts of egoism (kit stealing, single-person humvee,...) and will eventually get corrected as necessary. If a HAT kit is essential to surviving the battle scenario, then it is an ASSET, and admins can take appropriate action to make that asset usable for our team.

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My real point is we don't need to change rules about kit stealing to protect Volod's ability to keep his MG. If someone steals a kit, you see it and you're an admin warn him, kick him if he does it again, ban him if he persists. Its pretty simple really. Sem is right we should not be condoning TKs for something admins can handle.

I don't always trust someone who !reports a person allegedly stealing kits unless I witness it. Same thing with TKs. We are not expected to be everywhere at all times. If you're an admin do your job, if you're not report it.

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I was there to see Binary run around following gachete yelling for his kit back. :9:

We were on the first flag on the hill (Shahadah) It was kind of funny actually. Comparable to chasing a chicken around a farm. Because gachete doesn't really talk much and definitely doesn't respond to comms. And he's always joining asset squads of any kind as an infantryman.  :3:

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