Kassel Map Mod

[DrJohn]

Hello all,

Could I ask we re-evaluate the map Kassel? Much like the Vietnam maps of old, Kassel works well in Deployment but is limited in Co-op. The foliage, bot engagement distance and lack of vehicles turns the map into somewhat of a grind relatively quickly. I'm not sure what you did to the Vietnam maps to increase playability but, could I ask that we consider trialling the same for Kassel?

John.

[jack_black]

Basically, the only guys having fun are the ones flying CAS. Infantry squads, and especially tank squad, are enjoying pure dread. 

[Pew_Pew]

Do whatever you want but please don't change the cas mechanism xD

[Cherry]

Maybe add another repair depot that is closer to the action. Like in Bijar lrg where repair depot spawns on Cave bunker after you capture it. This way tanks and logis can repair and resupply closer to the frontline. 

[Store-DK]

I agree lack of truck and cars. And then "The bot wall hack thingy" turn it down a bit plz, then I think it would be a great map... As it is now... BAD MAP 

[=VG= The_Polish_Guy]

There's more to it than that:

• Lack of transport on a huge map Actually I'd say it might be the distance not the amount of vehicles but still a logistic nightmare
• Trees and mostly those French bushes
• 2 logis that take for ever to resupply and drive back to the battle
• Bots shooting Garands as quick as AKs or M4s
• The insane amount of enemy armor that we can't counter because we have no supplies and the friendly tanks just get LATed through trees
• Not seeing any enemies on the first few flags...
• ...that leads to only CAS having fun for most part
• Of course if a tank is hit and needs repairs it takes ages just to get a repair from a logi (and even longer to get to main and back)

There's probably some more staff too.

Spoiler

That's why I don't set it for the past few months and why some people want to kill me for this.

1 hour ago, DrJohn said:

I'm not sure what you did to the Vietnam maps to increase playability but, could I ask that we consider trialling the same for Kassel?

I think that's sadly not possible. The Vietnam maps didn't really change. We adapted our tactics, we can use smoke now, but most of them are maps with at least some cover, terrain changes and most importantly trans helis and logis that allow for quick transport and a proper supply chain. On Kassel there is of course some cover but between the objectives there is just an open field (and some trees but that doesn't really help). On Vietnam maps we can just call a trans heli to not waste time trying to cross an open field but that's not possible on Kassel.

The change I think would be the best is making a smaller layout for it. It would concentrate the enemies more and allow for better logistics.

But of course as this is not a game made by a multi-million dollar company but by DEVs working quarter-time for free, we can't expect everything to be perfect. Suggestions and discussion are always great but we need to also remember that those people have a ton of other staff to do.

Also probably dragging LangMaster into this thread would help to show his perspective on those issues.

[Spartanish]

As Cherry brought up, adding new supply depot somewhere around center of the map, in same manner like on Bijar LRG, would immensely help the supply situation. Additionally, I would suggest adding close to it spawn points for more vehicles. Half-tracks especially are a chore to bring from main, and taking them later on when frontline is on last flags is bordering on madness. Tanks as well could be moved to such additional supply depot, since it takes roughly 20 minutes for one to come back to front after destruction. Way too long given how exposed and blind they are on this map.

Alternatives are a complete revamp of the layout as Polish proposed, or adding 30 Stukas since CAS clearly works well. First option would take more time than just adding supply depot and changing vehicle spawns points to existing layout, while second 'option' would get old pretty fast and would create new problems.

[Allie2]

4 hours ago, jack_black said:

Basically, the only guys having fun are the ones flying CAS. Infantry squads, and especially tank squad, are enjoying pure dread. 

AA Enfield would like to know your location.

[R-CON LangMaster]

I totally understand that moving over a map especially a WW2 is hard, without a trans or any other fast mover, this map is the only 4km ww2 map so it definitely has visible flaws in this category, I am a busy man, so i have made only a large layer so far and large layers of mine are always hard, they are designed for a challenge and pain and should be only played if you know your team is capable enough. Though i can tell when layer has become not enjoyable at all. 

 

5 hours ago, Store-DK said:

I agree lack of truck and cars. And then "The bot wall hack thingy" turn it down a bit plz, then I think it would be a great map... As it is now... BAD MAP 

About this i sadly cannot do anything bots will always shoot through foliage, that is also basically why we do play ghost train because sometimes we are masochists.
 

 

5 hours ago, Cherry said:

Maybe add another repair depot that is closer to the action. Like in Bijar lrg where repair depot spawns on Cave bunker after you capture it. This way tanks and logis can repair and resupply closer to the frontline. 

This is something i might consider, i have done it for bijar lrg and adak lrg aswell, this should definitely help alot with the slow moving ground vehicles that ww2 has.

 

4 hours ago, =VG= The_Polish_Guy said:

There's more to it than that:

• Lack of transport on a huge map Actually I'd say it might be the distance not the amount of vehicles but still a logistic nightmare
• Trees and mostly those French bushes
• 2 logis that take for ever to resupply and drive back to the battle
• Bots shooting Garands as quick as AKs or M4s
• The insane amount of enemy armor that we can't counter because we have no supplies and the friendly tanks just get LATed through trees
• Not seeing any enemies on the first few flags...
• ...that leads to only CAS having fun for most part
• Of course if a tank is hit and needs repairs it takes ages just to get a repair from a logi (and even longer to get to main and back)

There's probably some more staff too.

  Reveal hidden contents

That's why I don't set it for the past few months and why some people want to kill me for this.

I think that's sadly not possible. The Vietnam maps didn't really change. We adapted our tactics, we can use smoke now, but most of them are maps with at least some cover, terrain changes and most importantly trans helis and logis that allow for quick transport and a proper supply chain. On Kassel there is of course some cover but between the objectives there is just an open field (and some trees but that doesn't really help). On Vietnam maps we can just call a trans heli to not waste time trying to cross an open field but that's not possible on Kassel.

The change I think would be the best is making a smaller layout for it. It would concentrate the enemies more and allow for better logistics.

But of course as this is not a game made by a multi-million dollar company but by DEVs working quarter-time for free, we can't expect everything to be perfect. Suggestions and discussion are always great but we need to also remember that those people have a ton of other staff to do.

Also probably dragging LangMaster into this thread would help to show his perspective on those issues.

About missing bots on first flags is again a problem i cannot fix, only way to fix this is doing maps in one line with no multiple flags on one stage, i would have to break into a CanadaDICE office and steal their library for AI for redesigning their ai brains.

But i think indeed the main issue here is the lack of helo trans, i have designed this map in a same way i do in every other layers and i don't think i have considered the influance from helicopters that is missing in ww2 maps.

The map also might get a delayed paratrooper spawn points but i will think about this one still, i don't like people suiciding for a better spawnpoint.  

Also I just wanna say that if you wanna talk about some changes or feedback regarding a map layers this forums are not it, vg cannot alter their layers, so please next time feedback is appreciated on realitymod.com if you want to have some changes done on the maps, luckly i do read these forums and i appreciate a feedback on my layers but sometimes it is something i cannot touch and other devs don't read these forums at all. I am just saying the way it is, the more influence is visible on the main forums regarding something the higher the chance it will be taken care of. Obviously to a certain point, we are not wizards not everything can be done.

[Torun]

If only paratroopers were a thing in PR, you could add a transport plane and drop infantry out of it... Do you think it would help in this map? Is a plane like that even added to the mod?

[=VG= m823us]

17 minutes ago, Torun said:

If only paratroopers were a thing in PR, you could add a transport plane and drop infantry out of it... Do you think it would help in this map? Is a plane like that even added to the mod?

Dragon Fly was a map where you had the parachute option for a starter point, much like Dover Winter at the start (the older version).

As @R-CON LangMaster pointed out we can not run a public server with these changes,  however we do have enough DEVS in the community still that are active, @=VG= Melon Muncher is the COOP DEV who helps keep PR alive for us to enjoy this game after all these years.

[R-CON LangMaster]

3 hours ago, Torun said:

If only paratroopers were a thing in PR, you could add a transport plane and drop infantry out of it... Do you think it would help in this map? Is a plane like that even added to the mod?

You my friend have been livin under a rock for the past couple years?  transport plane is not a thing though you can make it so the transport plane hovers over the certain point of a map so people can spawn on it, but as i said i don't wanna be to quick making this map suddenly way easier than it should. 

Also i have been given permission to make an unintended annoucement that mortar smoke might be working against bots by Arab [R-Dev] which could make life on many maps like these much more easier.

[DrJohn]

5 hours ago, R-CON LangMaster said:

Also i have been given permission to make an unintended annoucement that mortar smoke might be working against bots by Arab [R-Dev] which could make life on many maps like these much more easier.

Lang you are the gift that keeps on giving.

[R-CON LangMaster]

3 hours ago, DrJohn said:

Lang you are the gift that keeps on giving.

Not my work, since i am under NDA i had to ask if i can leak this information  then i have been told its not a leak if dev says it, its an unintended announcement so i will go with that, obviously it still requires some testing and Arab is doing gods work right now to make it work. I am not working much on layers lately but i for sure try to keep my layers in a working an fun state, i am trying to spend my time on learning model exporting into this game.

[DrJohn]

21 hours ago, =VG= The_Polish_Guy said:

There's I think that's sadly not possible. The Vietnam maps didn't really change.

I could be wrong but, I believe melon once experimented with the bot sight/engagement distance on La Drang. This change alone would prevent the inevitable Sherman bush-snipe.

[jack_black]

I still have nightmares from when I drove a Stug for 15 minutes, just to get bush-sniped..

[R-CON LangMaster]

48 minutes ago, jack_black said:

I still have nightmares from when I drove a Stug for 15 minutes, just to get bush-sniped..

I remember i played the stug with polish i think, and we had some impressive comms between us, great shooting aswell, that was the most rewarding tank play i had in a long while.

[=VG= The_Polish_Guy]

1 hour ago, R-CON LangMaster said:

I remember i played the stug with polish i think, and we had some impressive comms between us, great shooting aswell, that was the most rewarding tank play i had in a long while.

True that was some nice teamplay but we still died to an M10 behind a bush.

[R-CON LangMaster]

2 hours ago, =VG= The_Polish_Guy said:

True that was some nice teamplay but we still died to an M10 behind a bush.

You didn't had to tell them that.

[=VG= Melon Muncher]

10 hours ago, DrJohn said:

I could be wrong but, I believe melon once experimented with the bot sight/engagement distance on La Drang. This change alone would prevent the inevitable Sherman bush-snipe.

Unfortunately I can't see it working for kassel, the big view distance and planes make it really hard to balance and you would still end up getting pinged across the map or the planes would never get shot at.

I've redone the whole system for WW2 vehicles and weapon ranges which should help a little bit for combat. Not a guaranteed fix though.

 

On 6/5/2022 at 3:42 AM, R-CON LangMaster said:

About missing bots on first flags is again a problem i cannot fix, only way to fix this is doing maps in one line with no multiple flags on one stage, i would have to break into a CanadaDICE office and steal their library for AI for redesigning their ai brains.

[R-CON LangMaster]

They are spawning at the front flags, use the tracker tool its there for a reason, if you kill them well then obviously they don't like you and will try to keep a distance from you, maybe if you ask them nicely, its always where are the bots ??? but you never ask how are they...

[=VG= Zeee]

Why not just remove the 2 flags on the left town and make first flag controlled by enemy that way we have more contact on flags rather than empty flags

[PL gomezo]

all the above issues aside, on Kassel I always operate a logi and RTB pretty often and I gotta tell ya a lot of hostile infantry is always left kilometers behind our progress, like they start to move towards that first flag that starts as neutral and then they either kinda get lost or are too slow to catch up, on a scale I've never seen on any other large maps like Bijar or Pavlovsk