Are bots too easy?

[Xenalite]

I seems for a couple of months now, the bots are on a significantly lower difficulty.

We find ourselves easily completing maps, which I remember were much harder, even with more people.

Spawning seems to be much lower in flags that are being currently taken.

It used to be the case that Sbeneh Std or Khamisiyah, it would be very difficult to take South city or Chemical, because of bots constantly spawning.

Charlie on Sbeneh used to be impossible.

Now I managed to complete these maps with 20 people. It doesn't even seem like bots spawn in the base, because sometimes the tank column never comes.

Muttrah Lrg used to be very difficult with less than 20 people, because enemy would Blitzkrieg all the way to North City. Now we can finish Muttrah with 10 people, because we cap West City before enemies even get there.

Jets used to drop bombs, now they only use cannon and sometimes rockets.

TOWs and AA mounts would shoot very quickly and accurately.

Bots still seem quite accurate with small arms fire, especially in forest maps, and RPG are still quite prevalent.

 

While this is fine for late nights and mornings with low population, we now really struggle to find any challenging maps. Unless we play Vietnam 24/7. Even that isn't guaranteed. I remember playing Barracuda ALT for 3 hours 1 round to get through Swamp and Supplies. Now I can't remember last time it took us more than 1 hour to complete this layer.

[CptHawk]

I've noticed the bots have almost become asset dumb, like with the SPAA, they sometimes don't even have gunners. Yesterday on Kashan I came across two Gophers in an armored column, which normally would be a death sentence for any CAS asset, but nether had gunners and I got them both in one run.

It's also gotten to the point where I find myself able to fly into the enemy base when their base AA is active, I just pop a flare every five seconds and it never touches me. Where as it used to dump missiles at me ignoring all ammo capacity, and it never mattered if I did flares or not as I couldn't defeat eight different missiles in a five second time span.

I also miss the enemy CAS actually being a little bit more aggressive toward ground assets, as it stands now, they are simply flying targets for our CAS and don't really pose any real tactical threat.
 
But the other contributing factor into the difficulty is the experience people accumulate playing the same layers on the same maps for months to years at a time. Alot of us play so much we know where to set up fobs or where we can hold up and lock down the enemy with only a hand full of people. So while I absolutely agree about the bots seemingly becoming more lack luster, It also doesn't help that every map has almost become routine for alot of the older guys against bots that always think the same way.

[=VG= m823us]

I can go turn the bot difficulty up,  but as mentioned before they are not using assets correctly. Multiple instances, it seems like they count one bot inside as "manned". I have switched and seen them not use it appropriately. 

We can test and find out the results.

[Carkidd]

I remember an active and unmolested Frogfoot being a death sentence for any blufor ground assets. Is that still not the case?

And, yeah, I find that there are sometimes bot vehicles entirely missing their gunners, and their SPAAG's being much less of a threat before

I feel like maps that are close quarters, or wooded really increases the difficultly. My dream is to set up a sort of dense city or bunker system that you need to clear of the enemy. There are lots of destroyable structures that don't see enough use in this game!

[Jersans]

I think it mostly depends on the player-base. Let's face it we have some veterans that know exactly where to blow up the bots, deliver crates etc. and make a map easy as a hot knife through butter. If you play so-called "off-hours" with mostly newbies things get a lot harder. We got stuck on Muttrah a few times during those hours and simply didn't have the "power" to make it past south city. We did have 20+ people though. 

[=VG= 0100011000101]

I also have the feeling that the bots on the one side shoot much more accurate ( At least I often die ^ ^ and often do not even see where the shot came from) but on the other side they are somehow more stupid. I have more and more situations where a bot would have to kill me but then it hangs on a door or tries to stab me through a wall. something like that was much rarer before.
this is also the case with vehicles. on the one hand, as already mentioned, there are also armor or apc without gunner. but not only that. yesterday I drove on muttrah with a logitruck by a tank and two apc and they would have had to shoot several times but they did not even notice me. even if they moved the cannon in my direction I had the impression that they do not targeting me. as if I was not there.
it seems like there are points that attract the bots and they do not see everything else. like with helicopter ... a transporter flies over a few bots, they all look up and you can almost run through them and kill with a knife. like zombies ... ^^

[=VG= 0100011000101]

10 hours ago, Jersans said:

I think it mostly depends on the player-base. Let's face it we have some veterans that know exactly where to blow up the bots,

partly maybe yes but that is not the reason. if volod, 22, skirmisher, ranger, xenalight, double and a few other good players are online at the same time then it is often too easy but we also have a lot of new players and total chaos in the sqds. .. should also be seen in the log. I have the impression that currently players get kicked and banned more often because just a lot of chaots and newbies are on the server and they do not know what they are doing. I've spent hours with 10 people to keep the tanks on muttrah away from the docks to win by tickets. At the moment you can still rush to fortress with 10 new players.

[=VG= keed]

Buff 'em!

Set difficulty to 98 and wait for the "nerf bots pls" thread. I remember having a blast being sniped out of a huey at 250ft during a dive.

The line between too easy and just annoying is unfortunately thin... 

 

[ZZANG1847]

If a map you're playing is too easy, run harder maps.

If a map you're playing is too hard, run easier maps.

Here are maps that I find it to be rather difficult to play unless we have 40 "GOOD" players to play with:

1. Korengal Valley STD

2. Tad Sae Offensive ALT

3. Beirut ALT

4. Lashkar Valley STD

5. Battle of Ia Drang STD/ALT

6. Kozelsk STD/ALT

7. Fools Road STD

8. Yamalia STD

9. Charlie's Point STD

10. Shahadah STD

 

Like Keed mentioned, there is a very thin line between game being too easy and too hard. Most of players enjoying the VG server do not join because they want to torture themselves, being killed by a bot across the field over and over again. If you want to walk 20 min from the main base just to get shot by a bot that you didn't see coming, there are plenty of games out there waiting for you. As much as I hate to admit, CO-OP, for the most part, is used for players to just have fun and learn the mechanics of PR.

This is not the first time when someone came to the forum and start suggesting of difficulty tweaks, and over the years I have lost many players who I knew very well and played hundreds of hours together because they no longer find this server/game to be fun. When there are hundreds, if not thousands of games that you can enjoy now, why would you go over this discussion multiple times, which will most likely end up with name calling and childish insults, just so we get to play same maps that we played last night?

Most of people here who state their opinions about the game probably have spent more minutes than we should've. Heck, I have spent over 2000 hours on this game alone and I don't see me stopping anytime soon. For those of us who spent quite a lot of time, of course this game is becoming easier the more we play. You give me 7 players who will actually listen to what I tell them to do, and I'll capture all the flags down to South City on Muttrah regardless of how high AI difficulty is set. However, we are NOT the only people playing in the sever, and while their voices might not be louder than what we have, their side of the situation must be considered as well.

I don't want to make this post longer than my college essay (which already is), so I will say this like I have said many times before:

I would rather have the map finished in 20 minutes than stuck on the flag for 1-2 hours, resulting most of player base leaving and me running the easier/popular maps just so we can repopulate the server.

[ranger_12]

1 hour ago, ZZANG1847 said:

If a map you're playing is too easy, run harder maps.

If a map you're playing is too hard, run easier maps.

Here are maps that I find it to be rather difficult to play unless we have 40 "GOOD" players to play with:

1. Korengal Valley STD

2. Tad Sae Offensive ALT

3. Beirut ALT

4. Lashkar Valley STD

5. Battle of Ia Drang STD/ALT

6. Kozelsk STD/ALT

7. Fools Road STD

8. Yamalia STD

9. Charlie's Point STD

10. Shahadah STD

 

Like Keed mentioned, there is a very thin line between game being too easy and too hard. Most of players enjoying the VG server do not join because they want to torture themselves, being killed by a bot across the field over and over again. If you want to walk 20 min from the main base just to get shot by a bot that you didn't see coming, there are plenty of games out there waiting for you. As much as I hate to admit, CO-OP, for the most part, is used for players to just have fun and learn the mechanics of PR.

This is not the first time when someone came to the forum and start suggesting of difficulty tweaks, and over the years I have lost many players who I knew very well and played hundreds of hours together because they no longer find this server/game to be fun. When there are hundreds, if not thousands of games that you can enjoy now, why would you go over this discussion multiple times, which will most likely end up with name calling and childish insults, just so we get to play same maps that we played last night?

Most of people here who state their opinions about the game probably have spent more minutes than we should've. Heck, I have spent over 2000 hours on this game alone and I don't see me stopping anytime soon. For those of us who spent quite a lot of time, of course this game is becoming easier the more we play. You give me 7 players who will actually listen to what I tell them to do, and I'll capture all the flags down to South City on Muttrah regardless of how high AI difficulty is set. However, we are NOT the only people playing in the sever, and while their voices might not be louder than what we have, their side of the situation must be considered as well.

I don't want to make this post longer than my college essay (which already is), so I will say this like I have said many times before:

I would rather have the map finished in 20 minutes than stuck on the flag for 1-2 hours, resulting most of player base leaving and me running the easier/popular maps just so we can repopulate the server.

Never miss Iron Ridge ZANG  

[Double_13]

if not mistaken the revivetime is 2 min meaning that once you killed a bot it takes2 min plus 10 sec respawn penalty to get back in the field.

Also the pro players sit on all the camping spots to stack kills. 

Less humans (max 30) and more bots (48) would balance it a bit more. 

The test server runs with 40 sec respawn if I am correct and this gives a bit more wave affect.

 

i personally like low populated moments as is the only moment people work together. (So crash= good xD) While I might have overplayed and analysed the game it is not hard to tell you the impact 2/3 good players have on the game.

I have modded nearly 100 layers of maps for the next big update (dunno when) in the hope of fixes some fundamental problems. However I cannot do anything against people who camp or exploit the game unless I make every map like Shahadah.

 

while difficulty and player numbers are just one side of the coin I think it is also up to the pros to think of how they are “breaking” the game with their tactics/ gameplay

 

If you guys want to have impossible fights just poke me and I’ll launch the test server (opfor or bluefor) with an army of noscoping and noobtubing bots. And no oneman assets xD

 

I am currently taking a break from PR to mass murder some aliens in Destiny 2

[Jersans]

Another suggestion would be to reactivate the bots their bombing abilities. I'd be for it. It makes run through maps such as Kashan a lot more interesting if you need to use AA to ensure the frogfoots don't destroy your tanks etc. Currently the tanks just drive through maps like this and destroy everything in sight supported by CAS effectively raping them. Infantry merely drives from flag to flag to drop bodies on the ground for capture. I certainly wouldn't mind taking an avenger needed to protect our armor.

[Xenalite]

On 11/25/2018 at 1:11 PM, =VG= m823us said:

I can go turn the bot difficulty up

[=VG= SemlerPDX]

7 hours ago, Jersans said:

Another suggestion would be to reactivate the bots their bombing abilities. I'd be for it. It makes run through maps such as Kashan a lot more interesting if you need to use AA to ensure the frogfoots don't destroy your tanks etc. Currently the tanks just drive through maps like this and destroy everything in sight supported by CAS effectively raping them. Infantry merely drives from flag to flag to drop bodies on the ground for capture. I certainly wouldn't mind taking an avenger needed to protect our armor.

Really?  This is a thing that was intentionally removed?!  Maybe unintentionally? 

[Spartanish]

1 hour ago, =VG= SemlerPDX said:

Really?  This is a thing that was intentionally removed?!  Maybe unintentionally? 

Intentionally cause it was crashing the server. "Updated AI jets to not be able to drop bombs to fix crashing issues." this is from 1.5.4.0. changelog.

In regard to topic, bot difficulty is not an issue, it's theirs' spawning patterns. Maps like Grozny STD for example became barely enjoyable when we meet up to 80 bots before capping last capable flag. In contrast, it took us 20 minutes alone to capture the very first flag on Pavlosk Bay STD few days ago, only because entire bot team was like never spawning there. Afterwards, we finished rest of the map in barely over another 20 minutes, since bots were no longer spawning on frontline flags.

 

Increasing bot difficulty will not solve the problem, it will mask it. And at the same time, just as ZZANG and Keed mentioned, it will more likely just cause new problems. Having Bots with faster reflexes on city or desert maps is one thing. On jungle, forest maps it will be more of annoyance than an actual challenge when bot will shoot you down instantly from several hundred meters distance, behind trees and bushes, after you left cover 1-2 seconds earlier. Increase the difficulty and within days, weeks there will be complaints that it is simply no fun to be gun down by something from another side of the forest.

[Double_13]

I agree with spartanish on putting the difficulty too high resulting in unplayable situations. 

While I agree with it needs to be tweaked a bit 97/96 it would make it better for some maps. 

However I keep to the point that the player number is a larger issue. We cannot put more then 48 bots on opfor (reason below) but we can put 120+ on bluefor. However we run 40 and more important 40 vs 40. Any player noob or not is better than a bot so in therms of balance it is unfair, however we as =VG= balance this out by increasing the bot difficulty up and up to the point the bot overcomes the player. However this results in an always hit percentage that ruins the game in the way you peak you dead only way surviving is camp them. 

I would like to suggest again to drop the human limit to 32 and bots to 48 to give them a manpower advantage rather than a quick scope advantage.  This should also result in more teamwork as you have a lesser manpower pool but still the same objective this should keep the fun in.

 

Further we should start to kick people who deliberately camp / block the bots from moving out the main or flags without contributing. And yes this is will be a question when are you camping/ breaking the game. 

But to pose some situations we have now. And note that I keep cas out as some maps you can’t claim cas killing shit out main or else they die.

Khami all tanks camp chemical rather then pushing in and help the cap, this only as they to scared getting shot and having to miss the next camp wave and speeding up cap to break the current camp.

silent eagle. All assets rush past the first 3 neutral flags and await the armour wave, as result they skipping flags and could help transporting people from A to B.

Bamyan. Tanks sit on the hill picking off targets and actually shooting in main to gain kills. This as if they move in they have a chance to get damaged and RTB for 10 min. 

Muttrah tow on the pier aiming on the ramp leaving out main

I can name a dozen more maps but all these maps are either really easy or really hard simply because of the campers. Easy as nothing to kill or hard simply half the team (12 people) been on the hill rather than in cap. Ofcourse one can debate where if having this “nothing to do between flags “ is a design flaw or not. but the fact is we cannot (we actually can written in hidden) fix this and it will only fix it for some maps

 

The game has a hard coded limit for the opfor team of 48 bots while I found the code (decompiled DLL code) that technically should remove this limit it is still the question if it will be as the developers I asked are reluctant to remove the hard coded limit. 

 

[=VG= keed]

9 minutes ago, =VG= Double_13 said:

Further we should start to kick people who deliberately camp / block the bots from moving out the main or flags without contributing. And yes this is will be a question when are you camping/ breaking the game. 

Blocking and camping main is already kickable afaik. But breaking? Hard to judge imo. Is killing the fortress Igla considered breaking? Or Burning Sands being on the bridge in the chally and waiting for the armoured convoy? 

[Nexwiiz]

my two cents on this topic

there should be an increase in difficulty but keep it balanced cuz then u'd get rekt in inf maps esp when the server is low pop

Quote

 

Khami all tanks camp chemical rather then pushing in and help the cap, this only as they to scared getting shot and having to miss the next camp wave and speeding up cap to break the current camp.

silent eagle. All assets rush past the first 3 neutral flags and await the armour wave, as result they skipping flags and could help transporting people from A to B.

Bamyan. Tanks sit on the hill picking off targets and actually shooting in main to gain kills. This as if they move in they have a chance to get damaged and RTB for 10 min. 

Muttrah tow on the pier aiming on the ramp leaving out main

 

u could fix the tank problem by making armored assets 2 players only

muttrah, replace the tow with the crow

idk about flag rushing for coop. maybe implement something like red orchestra where u out of bounds if the flag ur defending is captured (u have to fall back)

[Xenalite]

Spartanish is right. The spawn patterns have changed few months ago. It used to be the case that bots would spawn on the flags you are currently taking. Now they barely do.

[=VG= SemlerPDX]

9 hours ago, Nexwiiz said:

maybe implement something like red orchestra where u out of bounds if the flag ur defending is captured (u have to fall back)

No -- never!!  This is not RO, this is PR and along with other suggestions, these are changes that would alter the gameplay to such an extent that it would be essentially a "different" game.  No offense intended.

 

With all due respect, a few of these ideas along with some suggestions on the PR forums to alter the Medic system to resemble the one in Squad are well meaning but flawed at the core.  While it feels right to speculate that implementing/changing a system to behave like another one you enjoy in a different game, it is often irrespective of how and why this game operates the way it does.  The opinions of a player mature over time, too, in the first few weeks or months vs. after 3000-4000 hours like myself and several other VG alumn, and it is not always easy to remain objective regarding what we personally feel would be a good improvement or addition to Project Reality (DEP or COOP).

We've got a few ideas, and great feedback from this thread, but I believe the consensus is that there are a few issues that can and will get solved in future patches, and also that jamming up the difficulty setting will not alleviate these issues.  We likely will not lower the number of humans allowed to join the server, but we may request Admins police certain types of camping, but we'll need to discuss it internally to hash out details, specifics, etc.

 

[Carkidd]

13 hours ago, =VG= keed said:

Blocking and camping main is already kickable afaik. But breaking? Hard to judge imo. Is killing the fortress Igla considered breaking? Or Burning Sands being on the bridge in the chally and waiting for the armoured convoy? 

I find that it's the people in charge of kicking for this doing the camping themselves!

Everyone does to, because nobody really enforces the things double talks about.

[=VG= Inch]

I found out most of the bots AAV mostly going to be easy to kill these days by just putting the Commanders UAV above it, they usually starts aiming up the sky when you observing few of them ( i believe some APC/IFV's or even tanks does the same as well, but only in certain times )

 

Usually afterwards they came to shoot the UAV itself and giving their position away, another easy way for BLUFOR's AT infantry / CAS to track them down and that's about it ( feels like no challenge at all with these simple trick to bait them )

 

You can try this at Barracuda STD for example, pretty obvious sometimes after they're went out from the main ( with the UAV on the air ), they started shooting immediately after directly watching them moving.

 

- Inch

 

I already liked what happen to the MEC Scorpions launching smokes when being engaged, makes them difficult from tracking their movements sometimes.

Hopefully, using smoke against bots on next update would change the gameplay a lot on Coop, and so with tweaking the bots difficulty.