project reality About the BRDM vehicle rules..

[=VG= Inch]

Hey guys,

 

I'm still wondering about how is a BRDM (or the AT version, Spandrel) categorized in this =VG= Co-Op Server. Mostly in a map like Beirut (STD), is it supposed to be:

- In a proper squad, like IFV or own make own BRDM/Spandrel (armored jeep) squad? (I'm not saying this one is good enough for APC, since it's light armored)

- Used by Mech Infantry squad?

- Freely used for everyone (both IFV/Mech's)/just leave it alone?

 

From what i saw in recent or old games, BRDM pretty vulnerable and easy to kill with HAT kit (one hit in every side and done), but it's still had to hit more twice with LAT kit (so, what my opinion is, BRDM looks the same (cause in the PR guide says, it's an armored jeep) or equivalent as the Humvee (Up-Armored, only the gun emplacement are different (BRDM has AP/HE rounds, rather than Humvee has Browning 50 Cal/Mk.19))

 

I'm still looking for the right answer for this, it's just a small problem that needs to be solved..

 

Btw, what happened to my post in VG Co-Op forum? Did someone deleted it? (Sorry, if it's annoying and long post in this forum)

 

Regards,

InchPincherToo

[Guest Spendrel/BRDM]

1. If an armored vehicle is going to be used in a mechanized infantry squad, it needs to accomodate enough seats for a whole squad. BRDMs, in general, have enough seat for half-full infantry squad, but spendrel only has 3 seats so it shouldn't be used by an infantry squad under normal circumstances (some exceptions can be made, but needs to be discussed with other squad leaders or admins online during or before the session).

2. BRDMs, regardless of its armaments, is still operated like any other APC/IFVs in the game. Therefore, APC/IFV squad has a priority to use the asset, unless the squad is full and someone would like to make a dedicated squad with the same name. They will need to get an approval from APC/IFV squad leader prior to usage, of course. Any asset that requires a crewman kit for either driver or gunner is considered as a heavy asset, like that small APC from Chinese faction.

3. Bot does not use HAT kits, only humans do. LAT kit, depends on angle/distance/prior damage can either disable the gun or blow up the vehicle, but same thing does for BTR/LAV/AAVs and so forth. Only because some assets seem to blow up easily doesn't necessarily means that the asset should be taken lightly and used like a jeep and/or a bike. Even these light vehicles can be claimed by a squad and using them without getting an okay from the original owner can be treated as asset stealing.

Hopefully these answered your questions

[ZZANG1847]

Oh btw, I wrote that reply above me. I didn't realize I was signed out of my account

[=VG= Inch]

8 minutes ago, Guest Spendrel/BRDM said:

1. If an armored vehicle is going to be used in a mechanized infantry squad, it needs to accomodate enough seats for a whole squad. BRDMs, in general, have enough seat for half-full infantry squad, but spendrel only has 3 seats so it shouldn't be used by an infantry squad under normal circumstances (some exceptions can be made, but needs to be discussed with other squad leaders or admins online during or before the session).

2. BRDMs, regardless of its armaments, is still operated like any other APC/IFVs in the game. Therefore, APC/IFV squad has a priority to use the asset, unless the squad is full and someone would like to make a dedicated squad with the same name. They will need to get an approval from APC/IFV squad leader prior to usage, of course. Any asset that requires a crewman kit for either driver or gunner is considered as a heavy asset, like that small APC from Chinese faction.

3. Bot does not use HAT kits, only humans do. LAT kit, depends on angle/distance/prior damage can either disable the gun or blow up the vehicle, but same thing does for BTR/LAV/AAVs and so forth. Only because some assets seem to blow up easily doesn't necessarily means that the asset should be taken lightly and used like a jeep and/or a bike. Even these light vehicles can be claimed by a squad and using them without getting an okay from the original owner can be treated as asset stealing.

Hopefully these answered your questions

Thanks, all of this means a lot in-game and for me! (I have no doubt anymore about your sayings, Any asset that requires a crewman kit for either driver or gunner is considered as a heavy asset)

 

 Now i know what should i do with those (so-called) Light Scout Vehicles (BRDM's, Canadian's Coyote and Chinese VN-3's). Surely i had to be discuss about these vehicle usage first, bfore start playing in early rounds (As Mech Inf/self-dedicated Armored squad)

 

Cheers,

InchPincherToo

[=VG= Kavelenko]

Hi InchPincherTwo,

Just to add to this discussion, I've run a Mechanized Infantry Squad on the Beirut [STD] map using an APC from the Carrier but I asked the APC squad if that was ok with them and which one (single or two man) APC they preferred my squad to use. That particular APC squad was quite ok with but the impression I got was that they weren't too sure themselves about how to handle such a request.

I forget who I was talking to about the APC role last night in teamspeak but the subject came up about APC, IFV, and AAVP assets being primarily direct fire vehicles that are supposed to be used to support infantry. As we often see its not uncommon for APC squads to race off from a base with a paired driver and gunner leaving infantry squads at the base to fight over left-over HMVs and small transport vehicles.

Having said that I also come across APC squads in the field who are happy to let stranded squads catch a ride in their vehicle, but mostly I see a lot of camped APCs on various strategic hill-side positions racking up the kills. No wonder it takes so long to cap flags sometimes.

What is the consensus of opinion among experienced Mechanized Infantry Squad leaders?

I'm not complaining about this btw, just hoping to read some opinions of others.

cheers,

Kav

 

[=VG= Acro1]

The rule surrounding this is very clear: APC squads ALWAYS have the final call over what happens to their asset. when there are too many APCs for 1 squad, a second one can be made. At this point, almost 99% of all leaders will gladly lend you an APC.

 

To use an APC as Mech Inf, you MUST refer to being mech inf in your squad name. no reference, no right to borrow a vehicle.

 

The final say in 'gray zones' is up to the admins. If there is an APC surplus, they can decide to let a Mech Inf squad use an asset if they believe it will benefit the team.

 

Finally: APCs are indeed SUPPORT vehicles. If an APC steamrolls towards a flag and gets killed by close-range RPG-fire swiftly, this can be considered asset waste and is punishable. Any armored asset has an enormous effective range and should be used as such. Unfortunately this usually means they will roll off to rack up kills, but in a way they are also limiting the net amount of enemies the infantry encounters at cap points, which is of course a good thing.

[Double_13]

Quoting Melon

 

"Every vehicle that requires a kit to operate needs to be named after it."

 

In general I do not like mech inf squads because they often do not know how to utilise the asset and be inf. they simply use it because there is no other way to transport large groups.  

No it's not allowed to just take the asset if nobody uses it. You need to get approval preferably written in allchat that you can use the asset. (I say written so staff knows) 

[=VG= m823us]

...Some people do not know how to run squads properly either, MEC INF or not.  The great thing is that we can all just learn and get along well enough to play the game.  The great thing about teamwork is that if someone has questions is to ASK!

[ZZANG1847]

Just for the record, if you are running a infantry squad and need a quick transportation, just ask. And no, I'm not talking about just TRANS squad, who should be always busy if they are being utilized properly (In my mind, TRANS should be the most busiest squad in the whole game, as they need to constantly drop crates and move squads around, whether someone asked for one or not). If you see an APC nearby and don't have any methods of transportation, ask them on either chat or mumble and see if they are willing to give you a hand. Unless that driver is in a deep trouble or just a bloodthursty A-hole, they will gladly give you a ride as long as your request doesn't jeopardize their asset (i,e, dropping a squad in the middle of a bot-spawning flag).

And if you are running an APC and see someone walking near you, get close to them and ask if they need a ride. I have seen numerous players who were just walking because TRANS wouldn't get back to them and thanked me later when I give them a ride they didn't ask for. Many players are just new to the game and they don't ask around because they don't want to be viewed and treated like noobies.

[=VG= Acro1]

If they dont ask around in the beginning we should teach them from the start. In deployment, trans squads who show up uninvited are considered horrible and get yelled at by all squads.

 

Ditto for COOP, in many cases a squad moves on foot or by land vehicle for a specific reason, and a Huey showing up is both a nuisance and liability.

 

But okay, this is going off-topic

[Guest Jersans]

APC units are never really used as intended. Personally I think that mechanized infantry should be the rule not the exception.

[=VG= Inch]

Wow, i didn't expect a lot of replies coming, but thanks for telling those things, now i'm kinda understand about it

 

The Point is:

- "BRDM is an Armored Jeep that treated as Light Armor, dedicated Armor squad (APC/IFV) shall be the one on using it, since it's requires Crewman Kit as Driver or Gunner. Rules are the same, same priority as APC/IFV, main job is to assist and supporting friendly Inf's/Mech Inf's against heavy threats like Armor, enemy Inf's, picking up stranded friendly Inf's etc."

- "Always ask first the Admin in-game before start trying to use Heavy Assets as Mech Inf squad in early rounds of the map (especially like AAV, Light Scout/Recon Vehicles etc.)"

 

And that's what i learned, surely no doubt with all statement above and about you guys just wrote in this forum

Thanks by the way

 

Cheers,

InchPincherToo

 

Praise this Bovevaya Razvedyvatelnaya Dozornaya Mashina, the Russian Armed Jeep (Technically, it's an APC for some reason and in real life as well)! Formidable opponent in-game

[=VG= Kavelenko]

3 hours ago, l3RY4N said:

Most APC squads that i have seen so far have just been driving around and getting kills instead of transporting inf and supporting them wich is basically the main role of APCs.

Aso APCs with INF close to them have it a bit better (i suppose) as they have more eyes around them instead of just 1 or 2 man on the lookout for RPGs

Yes predominately that's what happens in most games, that's why I'd like to run with a squad who really knows how to run a Mechanized Infantry Squad to see for myself whether it is more effective than loner APCs or Infantry squads on foot.

I recently downloaded a manual on US Mechanized Infantry Tactics using the Bradley BFV, very interesting read but seems massively complicated. Its 430 pages!

Their idea is the Platoon structure as depicted in the image from the manual:

Obviously for COOP PR this may not be possible, but I'd love to see this type of force in action!. Wouldn't that be a sight!

Kav

[=VG= SemlerPDX]

17 hours ago, =ICE= InchPincherToo said:

Praise this Bovevaya Razvedyvatelnaya Dozornaya Mashina, the Russian Armed Jeep (Technically, it's an APC for some reason and in real life as well)! Formidable opponent in-game

Had the opportunity to check out a BDRM in person with =VG= Tankmaster and =VG= Airbats in 2015, seen in the video below.
This thing has been sitting for 40+ years, but it's turret still spins like it was built yesterday - Praise to the BDRM for sure!!

 

[Double_13]

Well the tactics you display are used on PR tournaments. However this is a completely different game in the way of playing because people spend days in prepping and drilling efficiency and navigation. 

An other issue is that the APC are either 2 or 1 man making it only able to carry 6 or 7 blueberrys. Most squads are 8 man so this doesn't fit in 1 vehicle. The homing rockets the bots seem to fire also doesn't give it a chance in been used as an infantry support vehicle. (bots tend to spawn with lat kits if there is armour nearby. bypassing the limitation of 1 LT per squad).

But lets say we could do so, an other issue would be loading times and the overassets on most maps. Mostly the first INF squad that gets created is +15 sec after the first asset squad is created and the filling can take up to 1 min with people that load slower. Deployment fixes this with the 3 min wait time but since this doesn't work with bots we are unable to implement this feature.  This also makes it less attractive for squads to roll with assets because they cant sort themselfs without having to deploy when the asset wants to leave. 

 

I mostly do not use the assets if I cant control them myself. In my eyes trans always gets shot down and 9/10 this is true. and APC doesn't communicate and just drives around  as they please. Of course when I know the pilot or driver its an other story but mainly this isn't the case. 

Look at a simple round of KHAMI tanks camp all on the hill and inf is just wandering around until hopefully something happens 

[=VG= Kavelenko]

This discussion has raised some great points regarding Mechanized Infantry tactics but I still would like to see some teams try the concept of using APC's as a full fighting tactical force especially on maps where there are a huge number of IFVs (Bradleys, Warriors, etc). And rather than having one squad named APC, have IFV-1, IFV-2, IFV-3 as separate squads but commanded by IFV-3 or the  lead APC commander. That way the vehicles are more likely to be full of infantry (manned by 24 personnel instead of the usual 6). I'm not advocating changing the squad naming rules either but I am throwing ideas out there for people to contemplate.

In my opinion APC squads currently are under-utilized but I'm more interested in exploiting the potential of getting 24 soldiers into a flag and capping it within minutes. I think this could work, but only if it is organized well. It would mean having a very disciplined group.

Food for thought.

Kav

[Spartanish]

So 'two' years later, how is it in the end? Do we still view BRDM-2 as APC, despite the fact that both in reality and in PR it is considered as Armoured Car? Chinese VN3 despite being pretty much the same vehicle apart from it's looks, is never considered as APC while it also has light cannon and requires kits to operate. 

Also regarding MECH INF asset. Is that squad allowed to take one-manned APC and if yes, can APC sq leader deny them access to it? It seems to be still not fully clarified matter.

[=VG= Inch]

Let's just say it's an equivalent to Humvees (especially the CROWS), but they're seem not vulnerable to 7.62mm's (50 Cal./40mm or more calibers only). What makes it overpowered, is that 14.5mm HMG as it's main armament beside the COAX MG (both BRDM-2 and VN-3).

I would agree up for rules about Scout Vehicle such as these, instead of putting them as APC/IFV groups. These has to be equivalent to Jeeps as usual, but they had to be in Mech Inf to use it.

 

I mean like what would happen if PR has more Armored Cars than usual? Like French Forces having Panhard VBL, German Forces having ATF Dingo/MOWAG Eagle IV/V, Russian Forces having GAZ Tigr, MEC Forces having Otokar Akrep/Cobra/GAZ-3937 Vodnik from BF2 etc.

 

- Inch

[TEDF]

I feel that the easiest way to solve this years long claiming "problem" is to follow the same rule every popped deployment server has set : 

1) APCs that don't require both crew members to use crewman kits (VAB, WZ 50.cal, fuchs etc.) are unclaimable and fall under same rules as jeeps.

2) Scout vehicles such as batmobile & BRDM2 are unclaimable.

3) Mech inf squad has access to ONE apc/ifv once the squad has more than 4-6 members.

If APC squad was created before mech inf, Apc squad claims all the apcs/ifvs, but must reserve one of the vehicles and its respawn to mech inf (chosen by apc squad lead).

If mech inf was created before APC squad, then mech inf can claim ONE of the apcs/ifvs and its respawns.(chosen be mech inf squad lead)

If mech inf gets created mid-round and has enough members,  the APC squad lead must designate a vehicle that goes for mech inf once it respawns.

I personally feel that mech inf should only be allowed to claim 2 man vehicles due to the 8 player squad limit, but I'd like to hear other's opinions on this.

[=VG= Fastjack]

In my opinion - MECH INF goes for APC.

Double mentioned already the Armored RUSH tactic at roundstart. We should focus more on teamplay. To much rounds are boring for 80% of the server population because of botfarming APC'S , TANKS and CAS assets.

[=VG= HaterOneActual]

If you don't need a crewman kit to man the gun it is not claimable, it's an un-claimable shitbox. I already make Mech Inf squads take the 2 man vics and with APC/IFV permission. If the Armored squad is full and crewing all positions it should be up to the SL to lend the vic to mech inf or not.

[=VG= Fastjack]

We should make really a  Rule how many asset per Infantry squad is allowed and how may people are required for using a asset.

Rolling alone with a TOW humvee and only to park it on Muttrah docks and shoot all vehicles that using the coastelroad shouldn't be allowed.

 

Last time i tried to play a Humvee squad with the TOW humvee on Muttrah. Another guy picked it before i was able to get it and told me boring story about TOW humvee not claimable.

I wished him much fun and saw how his fucking squad rolling away with 1xTOW-Humvee, 2x50cal Humvees and a LogiTruck. I yelled at him and forced him to bring back one Humvee or else.

2nd Tow Humvee spawn got picked up by Solo Random guy. He used it only for transport and jumped everytime out to protect the humvee vs. botfire (bots don't shoot at unmanned vehicles). I yelled in the SL Channel who the fuck using the TOW as transport-only and took it away from the SoloGuy.

I would suggest max 2 light assets for Infantry squads.

 

Sorry to tell this but hording 4 vehicles is a NO-GO under my administration

[Double_13]

Their are many questions pending APC assets and who claims them when.

For me I count that if APC has 2 or more APC's they do not claim assets that only require crewman for driving.

example

On Marlin STD we have 7 APC assets (4 VBCI (IFV's) and 3 Vab-Vtt (transport APC) For me APC then only claims the IFV's as INF needs the other assets to move around the map.

On Xian we have 6 APC's (4 VBCI and 2 VAB-VTT) So inf can claim VAB-VTT

Silent eagle ALT (2 Puma and 5 fuchs) INF claims Fuchs as the 2 troop trucks are not enough.

And many more maps we have to many assets

But on the following maps I find that APC claims the light assets

Marlin INF (1 VAB-VTT) / Kokan Alt (1 fuchs)  APC claims the assets as they do not have multiple assets. 

The reason i find that INF claims these assets is that APC does not even use them. This as they often have a better first pick thus leaving the transport APC behind and when killed they rather wait 5 min for the 1 man than to crew with his squadmate already in main.

Yes we can make Mech inf squads or call APC for transport but this simply does not work, as fastjack mentioned the assets are just used for camping rather than supporting, and they not going to sacrifice the kills for helping. 

I see no issues with people making dedicated Tow or Logi squads if the squad number allows it (so squads can still be created) as this often means the asset is Properly manned rather than been soloed or been used for 1 person transport. 

 

[Double_13]

Their are many questions pending APC assets and who claims them when.

For me I count that if APC has 2 or more APC's they do not claim assets that only require crewman for driving.

example

On Marlin STD we have 7 APC assets (4 VBCI (IFV's) and 3 Vab-Vtt (transport APC) For me APC then only claims the IFV's as INF needs the other assets to move around the map.

On Xian we have 6 APC's (4 VBCI and 2 VAB-VTT) So inf can claim VAB-VTT

Silent eagle ALT (2 Puma and 5 fuchs) INF claims Fuchs as the 2 troop trucks are not enough.

And many more maps we have to many assets

But on the following maps I find that APC claims the light assets

Marlin INF (1 VAB-VTT) / Kokan Alt (1 fuchs)  APC claims the assets as they do not have multiple assets. 

The reason i find that INF claims these assets is that APC does not even use them. This as they often have a better first pick thus leaving the transport APC behind and when killed they rather wait 5 min for the 1 man than to crew with his squadmate already in main.

Yes we can make Mech inf squads or call APC for transport but this simply does not work, as fastjack mentioned the assets are just used for camping rather than supporting, and they not going to sacrifice the kills for helping. 

I see no issues with people making dedicated Tow or Logi squads if the squad number allows it (so squads can still be created) as this often means the asset is Properly manned rather than been soloed or been used for 1 person transport. 

 

[=VG= Kavelenko]

24 minutes ago, =VG= Double_13 said:

snipped>

I see no issues with people making dedicated Tow or Logi squads if the squad number allows it (so squads can still be created) as this often means the asset is Properly manned rather than been soloed or been used for 1 person transport. 

 

Dedicated Logi truck squads can cause problems when they start building fobs all over the map and in the wrong places. Far too often these one man brigades setup locations to suit themselves, do not communicate with squad leaders as to where they want a FOB.

And as has already been pointed out, the TOW squad camps up on Muttrah docks to kill the armour (especially the 8-man BTR kill that boosts your scores) coming from the MEC main base (technically base-rape unless there's a squad at East City).

If this becomes a rule and dedicated Logi squads get priority over full infantry squads, we will have issues, so I don't agree with this at all. The only situation this works is on a serious event where there is massive communication, not on a noob dominated map. It's a bit different if these squads are experienced and are doing this for the good of the server but if new players see this as the norm they will use those assets in the same fashion but without the game experience to set up for the benefit of the whole team.