FOB update

[Double_13]

With the aim to have more cooperative gameplay on our server, it has been decided that FOB'S now need shovelling. 

This prevents the ability to lonewolf as CO or SL just to build FOBS, these where often way ahead of the capable flags and caused numerous new players to spawn on them, and by doing so get kicked/warned for flag hopping etc... We also hope that with the FOB's now require shovelling it puts an end to the, "build fob on the flag" and the "build a fob  just to earn points for top squad" mentality.

Due to coop limitations the HMG, AA, Morters and AT are not need to be shoveld. The foxholes and sandbags do not need shovelling as we find this to much of a change for the moment. However this might be changed in the future. 

Also due to recent spammage of razor wire this has been put on shovel mode as well. ( it's known that MEC is often lay called Mexicans but we don't need to build a "great walllll" on every flag to keep them out). 

We hope that these changes affect the gameplay and the cooperation between the players in a positive way. 

[TEDF]

Additional temp. test changes include having 2 specialized kits per team with 7minute respawn time and 1 minute cooldown between kit requests. Will also do few changes to the bot spawns and flag layouts on maps that have all but the main bases neutral.

Feel free to post feedback on these changes and if you feel that something else should be changed or changed back as it was.  The deployable weapons, such as AA / AT / HMG / Mortars cant be set to diggable as they tend to crash on COOP when someone jumps in mid digging.

[SerEvergreen]

Will this thread be intended for discussion of any and all custom COOP mechanic changes/implementations on our server? Just want to know so that we can have a proper expectation of what to talk about here, plus a potential topic name change to encompass that purpose.

[=VG= Kavelenko]

For the sake of discussion, I don't really see why its become 'illegal' to build a FOB on a flag especially when a squad needs to defend that flag with assets such as HMG, Foxholes and TOW emplacements against heavy resistance or armour.

What are we supposed to use against multiple TANKS and AAVs? Two AT kits?

Personally I think the placement of FOBs on the flag or 200m from the flag depends on your philosophy as a squad lead. Some of us don't see the need to place a defensive FOB (i.e. the latter) while others just want to cap the flag and move on to the next objective, this may mean not building a FOB at all. FOB creation may also depend on the number of players on the server and the map.

I'm all for Cooperative team play but being told where to not create a FOB is taking it too far, in my opinion.

[TEDF]

2 hours ago, SerEvergreen said:

Will this thread be intended for discussion of any and all custom COOP mechanic changes/implementations on our server? Just want to know so that we can have a proper expectation of what to talk about here, plus a potential topic name change to encompass that purpose.

It's meant mostly for the currenct FOB changes, But I decided to throw other stuff in here as well.

 

1 hour ago, Kavelenko said:

For the sake of discussion, I don't really see why its become 'illegal' to build a FOB on a flag especially when a squad needs to defend that flag with assets such as HMG, Foxholes and TOW emplacements against heavy resistance or armour.

The main reason FOBs got changed was to prevent people from spamming FOBs on flags that were ahead of cap order by taking a logi truck, drive through the map, throw down bunch of FOBs and then call it GG. It's secondary purpose is yes, to encourage people to find more "suitable" locations for FOBs rather than just dropping a crate from the truck and throwing it down out in the open / middle of the flag. Heavy assets can be deployed up to 150m from the FOB so Idont see the issue with having a FOB a bit further away. 

No one is saying that it's illegal to build FOBs on the flags, we are just making it a bit harder since the main complaint I've got recently is that it's too easy and boring, so instead of turning the bots into 1 hit kill sniper machines, I decided to go a bit different route.

[=VG= Martin]

Sound good to me. Good choice.

Regards.

Martin

[=VG= Kavelenko]

51 minutes ago, =VG= TEDF said:

The main reason FOBs got changed was to prevent people from spamming FOBs on flags that were ahead of cap order by taking a logi truck, drive through the map, throw down bunch of FOBs and then call it GG. It's secondary purpose is yes, to encourage people to find more "suitable" locations for FOBs rather than just dropping a crate from the truck and throwing it down out in the open / middle of the flag. Heavy assets can be deployed up to 150m from the FOB so Idont see the issue with having a FOB a bit further away.

But don't we already have a rule regarding flag hopping? I think it comes under base rape but I concede there have been instances where some commanders were skipping ahead and building FOBs.

Surely that is easily dealt with by admins who can resign the offending commander, and destroy those FOBs?

[zero_tolerance_s]

It takes aprox 3 minutes of continuous shovelling to build a FOB, using 1 engineer kit and 1 shovel. Its can be problematic to do this under fire. Probably it take less for a squad bigger than 2 people.  

However, it was impossible to build and maintain 3 razor-wire barriers with 3 shovels and 1 engineer kit, being under constant fire, as usually happens with razor-wires, given their purpose. We've spent more than 30 minutes shoveling, dying, respawning back, looking for kits, deploying new wires, etc., just to hold one flag. On Muttrah and other urban maps, this will not work.  I believe that at least the razor-wire should be excepted from shovelling. Or the number of armours should decrease. Or a balance between the two.

[Spartanish]

All depends on map  and number of cooperative players. Problem is that there are times that from like 5-20 people online barely anyone may be interested in actual shoveling. This leads to no FOB and no respawn for those newb... not experienced players (Muttrah, Jabbal, Beirut may serve as map examples). 

It is true that FOB and razor wire spam in the rounds with over 30 players (and at least several 'PROs') can be found anoying and boring but those restrictions are gonna make the earlier-later rounds with less players much harder or even impossible to proceed for weaker players .

[Double_13]

The Fob on the flag is an issue as the FOB itself will not become spawn able and therefor the FOB itself is useless, other than giving the ability to deploy HMG AT ect.
Like TEDF said the FOB could also be moved off the flag to a more suitable location thus making it spawn able and still giving you the ability to build things.

 

@zero_tolerance_s 

The Combat engineer doesn't work on building FOBS (at least to my knowledge) but only for razor wire.

The razor wire is a definite no as people spam them way way way to much. Maybe other than blocking off the flag some people stay behind and defend as it suppose to be. 

Personally i never use razor wire as i just move fast enough to the next flag to cap it before the bots can cap the other one.

@Kavelenko

Pending resigning the CO /SL that abuses the building/flaghopping. The issue is not only do they flaghop they make the game more unrealistic. Now its easier for people to just give up and respawn on the fob nearby rather then waiting for a medic. 

 

The whole goal of editing these features is it to keep the game interesting so we do not steamroll every map. 

[zero_tolerance_s]

1 hour ago, =VG= Double_13 said:

 

The Combat engineer doesn't work on building FOBS (at least to my knowledge) but only for razor wire.

The razor wire is a definite no as people spam them way way way to much. Maybe other than blocking off the flag some people stay behind and defend as it suppose to be. 

Personally i never use razor wire as i just move fast enough to the next flag to cap it before the bots can cap the other one.

 

I just dont get it! What does it mean "too much"?! How do you judge that? Maximum is 10. Not 50! Sometimes it takes 3 wires to close down one single street. Is that bad to defend a flag with wires?! You know very well that people are hardly staying behind to defend a flag. And you will not change their behaviour by making the game more difficult. The server is not always full but only a handful of people that are outnumbered, being forced to use whatever necessary means to progress through the map.

Why are you asking for feedback if you won't even consider it ?

The engineer kit works on FOBs too. You can even lay mines with it

[=VG= HaterOneActual]

When there is low server population I like to use wire to defend a flag so the squad can move up... We'll see how well 15 noobs do on Muttrah at the docks without wire on the gates.

[Double_13]

First of all we do support your feedback but for now we will not go in to changing the razor wire back to instant construction as we would like to see how people handle it. If it proves that certain maps can not be finished without them been on instant construction that is if the server is low populated we will take a new look at this. 

In my personal eyes and many other the razor wire is now been used just to play in the hands of the limitations of bots. (they get stuck on them as where a normal player would drive around). If I am not mistaken the razor wire was block to be used up to the summer last year. So how did players manage it back then? And I surly see that it could be hard to play the map with less people and especially building fobs as try to get multiple people to shovel. However as the server is most of the time decently full we decided that these new features could be given a try. 

Other changes I would like to see are the Delay on Tanks on kashan as now the tank crew rushes to the mountains waiting for the parade of tanks driving out and thats GG round finished, sadly there are some other flags the inf have to cap but that is just a matter of time isn't it? However this is not suitable on low players either as it would pose to hard. So then are we going to shift every attempt to making the game harder for a +-30 people server not happen because if it would be underpopulated we get more resistance and possibly wrecked? I would LOVE to see the bots wreck us on default (in a non 360noscope way) so we as people need to work together to finish the map. 

What I wanted to say with this is that Yes some changes make the map hard on low population but we cant always shift the blaim to that. 

Like said in my original post we hope that the cooperation between players will increase. If this happens then the Gameplay would also be better, and so the changes will become next to unnoticeable 

[=VG= SemlerPDX]

You want feedback, it is a good thing.

Do what you can to help make the game fun and more involving, but do so with respects to the server running with different sized populations - I was also an "off times" player when I was big in PR, and it was a big challenge -  because if you favor one group on the server with your changes (peak time players when server is fullest) you risk losing a portion of your player base and server popularity.  This is not Deployment, it's COOP, and fun changes that help are great, but beware that stressing too many Deployment rules could make it less of a casual version of PR;  vehicle respawn times is a good example where it's best at 5 minutes for COOP and 20 for Deployment, and altering it would change the nature of the game.  Just because you don't see certain groups (those who play during non-peak times) doesn't mean they aren't dedicated VG PR COOP Players.

Be careful what tools you remove - and test your changes, if something needs a day or two to feel out, fine - but be sure you pay attention to all the constructive feedback and don't mistake all of it as merely an "aversion to change".

[TEDF]

The changes are going to stay as they are for the time being as they have been active for less than 24h. We are going to run it as it is for couple of days and see how people adapt.

Like Double mentioned, the wires were disabled for years until they got set back sometime last year. The reason they were removed is not the that people used to spam them around the flags, but the fact that bot inf keeps running into the wire until they bleed out, causing the bots, who manage to sneak past the lines to bleed out and therefore have no chance of retaking the flag that's completely undefended. Or flip their vehicles as they ram the wires at full speed.

The biggest complaint I recieve over and over is that the rounds are too easy and end way too fast. That's why we are trying out these changes, so I ask for people to have some patiente, try out how the things work for a while and if the general population still wishes it to be reverted back, then it's not a problem and can be done.

I just feel that if a 2-3 man squad can run around on the map, using only knives and a logi truck, throw down bunch of FOBs and capture all the flags for the team, then something needs to be done.

[=VG= Kavelenko]

50 minutes ago, =VG= TEDF said:

I just feel that if a 2-3 man squad can run around on the map, using only knives and a logi truck, throw down bunch of FOBs and capture all the flags for the team, then something needs to be done.

My worry is that players who play on the server when it is not quite so full will just leave for easier maps. I've seen this happen when they cannot deal with the armour on Banjam for example. Its the newbs who are the first to give up because they cannot get anywhere.

If you want to make it a challenge for those 2-3 man squads, put a few experienced players on the OPFOR side and then see how successful they are.
 

[Double_13]

The problem with putting people on OPFOR is that if certain people join that team they will wreck the humans. Until before certain players joined the OPFOR team time to time and took control of the bots drive assets but not kill people. However with the new perm update these permissions have been removed. 

Ted has been searching if hes able to remove the requirement for 3 people to shovel the fobs but so far no success. 

[ZZANG1847]

8 hours ago, Kavelenko said:

If you want to make it a challenge for those 2-3 man squads, put a few experienced players on the OPFOR side and then see how successful they are.

I'm not trying to brag about what I did on other servers, but trust me when I say putting people on Bot side as an OPFOR is never a good idea. I could drive around T72 on Muttrah against 40 people on the US side and make their lives miserable.

[=VG= Ryan.TT]

I would like to mark one or two things.

Firstly; it is about FOB. I think it is third day now since server backup, from what I seen, people are lazy. When I deploy a FOB and tell them to dig, they start digging. But as soon as the FOB pops up, they stop it and waiting. Either they don't know that they need to keep shoveling or they are SO lazy about it. I hope this will teach them a lesson.

Secondly, it is about Razorwires. What is it purpose? Correct me if I am wrong but I think it is preventing enemy movements into a captured flag.

16 hours ago, HaterOneActual said:

When there is low server population I like to use wire to defend a flag so the squad can move up... We'll see how well 15 noobs do on Muttrah at the docks without wire on the gates.

I totally agree with what Hater says. I understand that. Addition to this, 

14 hours ago, Kavelenko said:

My worry is that players who play on the server when it is not quite so full will just leave for easier maps. I've seen this happen when they cannot deal with the armour on Banjam for example. Its the newbs who are the first to give up because they cannot get anywhere.
 

what Kavelenko says here, I believe those ones are the first one to leave the server for that.

In the end, I believe there is no getting into middle side. I vote for standing in current changes and wait-see what will happen.

[=VG= Martin]

Lets put it this way gentlemen,

This is VETERAN gamming server. This server MUST be different of the other COOP servers online. It has to be different because of features like those ones.

It is not to hard to dig a FOB. It is not to hard to work as a team. And if there are not to many people in the server, it would be a higher challenge for the players online.

Do you guys remember how fun was to defend our main base on Lashkar Valley in one of the past events? Everybody was happy about that situation... well... now you will be able to "suffer" those situations more often when the server has a low population online.

Like I said, this is VETERAN gamming server. We MUST offer something else than "10 min rush overkill CAS automatic FOBs" gameplays like any other COOP server online.

Just my two cents 

Regards.

Martin

PS: Maybe it would be a good idea to implement in the starting message of the server something like: "Players must dig FOBs in this server!!!"

[Jersans]

I actually don't have an issue with it. If you're a squad leader you're going to have to work with what you have and if you're only 10 people on Muttrah you can organize it to defend it and wait for reinforcements to come. I have done this multiple times in the not so recent past with some really great players and we had 'fun' struggling our way defending. And eventually assaulting. That's part of the charm of the game. Fight together. 

I understand the objections some have but come on. If you have five good people in your squad you should be able to defend effectively no doubt. We once held Muttrah docks for something like 90 minutes with pain truthfully and only about eight players by keep rebuilding our defenses playing smart and having fun while doing it. Then the reinforcements arrived and we finally had air support, trans and other teams to support us and we still won it at the end. Best squad of course. It was pretty awesome. 

In short don't whine and make the best of it. 

 

 

[=VG= HaterOneActual]

I can DIG IT!

 

[=VG= .Blizzard.]

I have no problem with this as long as the squad/team is cooperating to build that FOB !

[FatAlbert]

I like the idea and I have no issues with it, but I prefer not digging fobs.  My mouse finger get's tired.    

As for the razorwire, AH C'MON!  Nothing more funny than building instant razor wire in front of a door, in the basement of Hospital (Fallujah), line up the noob squad, aiming at the door, remove the razor wire and watch 15 bots come pouring out....then hear the reaction of the noob squad as they tear through them - hootin & hollarin!   "Teamwork" - DONE!  "Fun"  ACCOMPLISHED! new PR player - HOOKED!

 

In all seriousness, for experienced players (and enough of them) digging assets is not an issue.  

It's when you have a combination of casual players, new players, non-english, no mic, not responding, or "I just wanna shoot something" players that it becomes a bit of a pill.  Late at night, with all the 1 man squads, there won't be enough players to build a fob and/or defenses.

The worst case scenario has been, I'll see 1 person as infantry (I no speaka enlgihs), 5 people in Trans, 6 people in CAS.  And everyone in air assets tk'ing over who get's to crash the next chopper/jet. 

And if we do get a few more infantry people playing, humvee, logi, helo theft as personal transport increases when there are no fobs. 

So, late night participation may drop for awhile.

 

Let's give it a try though.   Hopefully, Monkey see, Monkey do.

[=VG= Fastjack]

First i support the Digging the FOB setting. NICE JOB guys. For me, i also would like digging all assets. I am a friend of that.

Not anymore this BEST SQUAD FOB  PLACING POINT WHORING. Not anymore this "TOW is empty - press T  - dismantle - place insta fresh new TOW"

On 24.4.2017 at 6:49 PM, =VG= TEDF said:

Like Double mentioned, the wires were disabled for years until they got set back sometime last year. The reason they were removed is not the that people used to spam them around the flags, but the fact that bot inf keeps running into the wire until they bleed out, causing the bots, who manage to sneak past the lines to bleed out and therefore have no chance of retaking the flag that's completely undefended. Or flip their vehicles as they ram the wires at full speed.

The reason why bots running / driving into it is because they dont know that they running/driving into a razorwire.  

I am sure many of you saw the jumping bots against a destroyable object (excample Basrah, the corrugated fence near the Mosque mainbase). The bots following the navmesh pathfinding . Normally is, where a big object is - is no navmesh and where no navmesh is no bot  will walk. For the bots is the way free because of existing navmesh/pathfinding. Now, you place a razorwire on a valid pathway

I also found out, there exist a destroyable object where the bot dont ran/jump against the object. Seems to me they go idle till the object is destroyed. The difference between the destroyable objects where the bots ran against and the special destroyable object is, that the special one has a ai template that tell the bots " hey, i am a obstacle and you cant pass till i'm gone". 

I can tinker a little bit. I believe that can be fixed with an ai template,