Tactics, Strategy, Game Play VS Server Rules

[xI_Yoda_Ix]

Of late some interesting strategies have developed on a few of the maps that really work well. However, recent discussions suggest that the tactics bend or possibly break server rules.
I have started this thread as an open discussion with the sole intension of improving the over all enjoyment of the game for ALL players.
My first example is the strategy employed by DEADBYDAWN where he rushes to the last intersection before pump, deploys a FOB, HMG, Foxholes and pounds the enemy as they leave their main through pump. The map is won in short order.
Second example is NWM (nowhereman) strategy on Lashkar Valley. He circles the map dropping FOB?s in strategic locations and then returns to the attack flag. He doesn?t engage the enemy while doing this but it does limit other squad?s options and exploits the AI weakness in defending against such tactics.
Both of these tactics make short order of the map but effectively change the dynamics of game play where the victory is shallow.
I believe the ?planned capture order? of Coop game play is meant to keep the game challenging. The fun is lost when a strategy or tactic is employed which exploits the limited AI of the enemy.
I welcome everyone to post your thoughts with the hope of keeping PR challenging and above all, fun for everyone.

[Guest AirborneAlways]

Well Yoda, given your age and wisdom when is comes to BF2:PR I will concede.

Rules should be looked at as in the spirit and not at a hard and fast line drawn in the sand.

Each map will present it's own difficulties and if a small element and can gives you a bit of an advantage than then what harm is there?

Now if it makes it to easy without any challenge then there isn't much of a reason to even play to begin with.

[xI_Yoda_Ix]

FUN is t most importan bit for me. I would think most would agree.
I not apposed to finding tactics that work, in fact I'm hoping that this thread will help develop some new ones without deminishing the challange and fun of the game. To hell with who has the most points! I want a fun meter! LOL

[=VG= DEEPINYOO]

Ya I agree Yoda, fun is the most important part, and one thing that kills the fun quicker than anything is over adminning. Sometimes you have to just feel how the gameplay is going and admin or not according to the style of the gamers that are on at that time. Yes we have rules for a reason but the key to good adminning is knowing when and how to enforce them to keep the game fun for the most players at the time, cuz ya can't please them all. Just use your best judgement, cuz the style you use to admin will change from map to map depending who or how many players are on at any given time. Remember we're gamers that like to have fun too, we just happen to be admins also. So remember if you're not having fun you may be over adminning.

[xI_Yoda_Ix]

Oh, I dont think I over admin based on what I see other admins do. I was thinking that I'm not doing enough. If the roll of admin starts to screw up my fun I'l give it away.
In this thread I was hoping to get a discussion going regarding tactics and stategy that keeps the fun and challange alive. The tactics I mentioned have taken alot of the challange away making the game a matter of predictable outcome. Some of the fun goes with it.

[Switch]

When you consider how many hours players like deadbyd4wn and nwm put into our servers, you can tell that they've tried just about everything and know each map extensively. I was talking to dead about his qwai river strategy and told him "man, this is too easy" to which he laughed and agreed. It was a new strategy that he always wanted to try out to give all the players who play regularly a fresh take on the same maps.

I'm not saying that setting up in front of enemy vehicle spawns and setting up a TOW is right, but I appreciate the variety of tactics that good SL's come up with to keep the game fun. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I agree that tactics should be employed for the purpose of keeping the game fun, not to win decisively and as fast as possible (although this can be fun).

Fun is subjective, but in my humble opinion, admins shouldn't be the one determining how the game should be played, even if their intentions are to keep the atmosphere fun. I leave it up to the players, both good and bad, to come up with their own ideas of how they want to have fun. I only reach out my long arm of justice when someone really steps out of line and directly violates a clear rule.

I'm sure everyone likes to be useless every once in a while (crewman kit on kozelsk anyone?).

[Robotfungus]

The Ai is VERY easy to kill once one has learnt their behaviour, spawn locations, pathing routes. I used to lead inf squads ages ago, but now i'll only do it with certain people, because im a moody arse, who likes to do things my way and cant stand explaining to new players over and over how to request a kit, rtfm and then i will gladly help.

Nowadays I try to mix up gameplay, tho when i see that apc unmanned i just cannot help myself. I will hold fire and let inf engage if requested, otherwise i will kill everything that i can, which makes me an armour whore. Next round i will grab a logistics truck and spend the whole round dropping crates and repairs for very few points to try and balance it out.

I would say set the bots to max difficulty, but that would make the server harder too seed and fill.

As mentioned in the other thread, each map has its own exploitable weaknesses, and opinions differ as too their negative/positive effect on fun for other players. Some people want to have a long(ish) round and takes things slower. Some (like me) like to complete all objectives in the most efficient manner, which actually involves being slow and methodical (take it slow to be fast) not leaving any stone unturned, therefore completing the map quickly.

Its down to the players and admins on the server at the time to discuss and come to a consensus as to how they want to play that round, and let everyone have an equal opportunity at some action. Communication is key (something that i still suck at)

Another thing to consider is the fact that when there are experienced players on the server, rounds will and do go very quickly. If you want more of a challenge and longer rounds, play deployment, i do and i love it, there is nothing more exciting in pr than playing against humans hell bent on killing you in a variety of cruel ways, and then t-bagging your face afterwards.

End of drooling rant.

[Pvt. Pirate]

I agree with you yoda.
when you play a map its not always about making a perfect run without casualties into the enemy main and taking the last flag within 20 minutes. that really ruins the fun.
also it can be a fun-killer if you get stuck for 30 minutes to the same spot. but thats up to the team to find away out of it.
i personally dont prefer those fast tactics, but a slow and steady gameplay. i even sometimes pretend not knowing the bot-routes and spawn points -> in reality you dont know every enemy foxhole.
after all there should be some challange it it. otherwise i could aswell play against 6 year olds.

[xI_Yoda_Ix]

Switch LAN_WROTE ...

.. I was talking to dead about his qwai river strategy and told him "man, this is too easy" to which he laughed and agreed. It was a new strategy that he always wanted to try out to give all the players who play regularly a fresh take on the same maps.
...

I've told dead the same thing. Brillent tactics and the SL I look for when I join the server.
I have not played with NWM very much. My loss.

It is not my intension to poke at dead or NWM for doing anything wrong. I merely select two examples which I thought would give clearity to the purpose of this thread. I was hoping to get people talking about ideas, tactics and strategies so I and other members of the community can learn to become better players. I felt server rules an important part of such discussions. I did not intend to offend anyone, least of all dead or NWM. Please accept my apologies should you feel that way.

Moving to deployment from coop is a backwards step for me. While I agree deployment is more challenging, the intensity takes the fun out of the game.

Perhaps the best place to develop tactics and strategies is better left on the battle field rather than here in a thread.

[Robotfungus]

If you don't want a predictable outcome then play deployment.

Humans Vs relentless automata = predictable outcome every round (human win btw) Predictable bots are predictable.

Completing objectives with as few casualties as possible is what pr is about, its a measure of how well the team helps each other out, covering each others moves, and when someone does get wounded/vehicle tracked, they get the repair/medic they need. I've seen whole squads wiped out due to a lack of fire co-ordination and the bots overran them because everyone was reloading at the same time. Pr is about teamwork/squadwork. In coop a unit can rehearse their tactics to a fine well oiled machine. I see nothing wrong with completing a map quickly, just DONT CAMP MAINBASE, and PLEASE attack the flags in the correct order, best times when whole team works as one entity forming a frontline that rolls over the enemy clearing everything and not letting any flags get recapped.

Just because one can respawn on their squad leader, doesn't mean they have to play this like vanilla, infact i've just realised how much i dislike the squad leader respawn, it encourages lax gameplay.

And yes i have played waaaay too much coop, i will endeavour to erase all map knowledge from the floppy disks in my head.

[=VG= Melon Muncher]

I find the reason its so easy at the moment is due to the tiny flag radius coop has to endure, take Ramiel for example if you expand the radius to be larger than one of those L shapes and include a few more buildings then it presents more of a challenge when you need to space out you guys to cover more angles rather than looking one way, Objective echo on Ramiel std the flag is smaller than the actual building its representing now if it were to cover the full building as well as the square across the road then you have more angles to cover.

The best example I can think of is south city on Muttrah you can have epically long battles over that flag or they can last 5 minutes depending on whether you can cover all angles or your squad is all looking at the spot the last bot was standing, The fact that it covers more than one building is what makes that flag.
Kokan for example takes this and runs with it all flags cover a full compound = multiple angles of attack combined with bots spawning all around the flag but never in the cap, presents a large challenge in coop but still entirely possible if its just you and a mate and bots on your team hard to explain but it works.

Lack of AI spawn points is also a game breaker if there is 4-5 spawns for a flag (about average) thats only 4-5 places you need to watch, Look at the compounds on Lashkar mortars can rack up insane kill just by firing in 2 spots. again using Kokan as an example but others have more I tried to average 10-15 spawn points on a flag while keeping no spawn point visible from the cap and most other places, this allows more random attack routes and keeps everyone on there toes, rather than setting up a HMG to watch one direction.
Of course there is no possible way to stop people from finding tactics of cutting off enemy reinforcements because if people want to camp they will find a way but doing these things severly limits the abuse of it all.

Just because one can respawn on their squad leader, doesn't mean they have to play this like vanilla, infact i've just realised how much i dislike the squad leader respawn, it encourages lax gameplay

And robot this can be set to allow only AI to spawn on squad leaders makes it harder for humans rather than just removing it all together.

[Robotfungus]

Fun is very much a dynamic variable, like taste in music or art, everyone has and is entitled to their own opinion. Which is why the rules exist to ensure that most people can have fun in their own way. Having detailed rules for each map is just too much, for admins to enforce and players to learn. we just need to use our common sense (if any still exists on this planet) to keep things balanced.

Melon you make a good point about how easy the maps are.

I'd like too see someone accuse me of mainbase camping/attacking flags/chock points that are not in play.
I see more clearly than ever how its making the maps too easy, ive always been very vocal with others who do camp mains, and strongly oppose such tactics. I will certainly be handing out more warns and kicks for those that disobey this rule.

Hey melon can u also please remove all vehicle assets, minimap, squad leader markers, compass, and just leave kits with a pistol and 1 field dressing... now that would be challenging fun, biological machine problem solving endorphin releasing fun.

[=VG= BLuDKLoT]

Follow the rules.....period.

Do not set blocking positions on any map!

Do not attack the mains until last flag, it's pretty clear in the rules.

Let the bots out of the main and into the map so there is action for everyone and not just a squad at the main killing everything before it has a chance to even leave the compound.

Follow the rules and enforce them as written.

Thank you.

[xI_Yoda_Ix]

If deployable asset required digging and squads needed a minimum of 3 players in order to deploy them it would effectively change the dynamics of every map.
I believe all the maps would become more challanging and provide oppertunity to develop new tactics.
It would also curtail one man squads.

Thoughts?
(I thnk melon suggested something like this recently)

[Pvt. Pirate]

Robotfungus =VG= LAN_WROTE ...

Fun is very much a dynamic variable, like taste in music or art, everyone has and is entitled to their own opinion. Which is why the rules exist to ensure that most people can have fun in their own way. Having detailed rules for each map is just too much, for admins to enforce and players to learn. we just need to use our common sense (if any still exists on this planet) to keep things balanced.

Melon you make a good point about how easy the maps are.

absolutely my thoughts there.

and Melon: thats a good idea about the cap-zones.

when you got only 3 infantry squads on muttrah, its most of the time necessary to keep one squad at the mosque while others go to south city. thats how it should be in most maps... add more diversity in where the bots come from and everyone has to keep their eyes open instead of just running from A to B and capping.

[Switch]

Melon Muncher =VG= LAN_WROTE ...


Kokan for example...

...again using Kokan as an example...

shameless self advertisement. Just kidding.