Open Discussion - Teamplay, Leadership, Mission Variety, and COOP Gameplay in Arma 2

[suomikeizari]

well having a bad week here, nothing special, don't watch simpsons and the lack of skill at English language does not help in the matter.

point taken, going for some R&R.

btw to make my points clear:

1. all the leaders are needed in any situation, OK you can live without them but its for the best to have them.

2. strictness is a virtue, It is good when done by capable people, otherwise it can be taken as a vice

3. We should play more ops, any will do lets just get everything we can find on armaholic and of course missions that anyone of us does.

4. I personally don't understand casual play so I'd wish we do more events with strict command tree but that's just me, as long as the majority of us have fun, and im having too.

[=VG= Murderface0151]

Castor STOP baiting shit. i know for a fact Gaz does not have something against you, sometimes personalities just clash and you need to work together and come to agreements.

a good leader is a respected leader, you earn respect by taking care of your men and making sensible decisions, also knowing when and when not to be 'tactical'. nobody mentioned anything about insulting anybody so let's nip that on the bud right away.

it is a lot more difficult to maintain correct formation on a 2D screen, focusing on the sthud more just to maintain a formation wouldn't be a good idea in a combat environment. you need those eyes scanning for enemies. i would expect a high majority of the regular Arrowhead players to maintain spacing and some form of a formation. if i were FTL or SQL i would just confirm with a simple "watch your spacing" which should be enough to get the message across.

i would rather take too much than too little, you never know what's going to happen, if i have to walk a while so be it.

a leader would consult with his men and see which way they would prefer to play the fight, if you have choices you might as well run them past everybody, and through that gain respect and trust within your team. eventually they will follow you into battle no matter your route, but first you must go through that stage of consultation, trust building and earning the respect. if high command says you must take THIS specific route, then so be it - you are all in the same boat. but like i said if you have choices..

obviously somethings gotta give if you believe a "commander" is better than a leader, or if that is your preference.

nobody is trying to make anybody look like an idiot as Gaz has already said, nobody is out to get you, don't take these things as a personal attack against you as it's not. it's just a learning process, everybody helps each other out.

repetition is key, whenever you are doing anything your brain always gets better at it - FACT. the more we play the better we will get, it's just a matter of being consistent and practicing. usually there isn't enough =VG= members online at any one time to make a proper go at it. 3-4 seems to be quite useless using formations and 'orders'. refer to democratic squad posts. we are experienced players due to the time we have been playing, but usually the mental bandwidth required for operations isn't that high. when we do complex operations or campaigns with several squads involved + all the mods, the mental capability to perform as needed is already there.

by the way nobody is raping your comments man, we are just trying to get onto the same page, majority of people feel differently to you (again that is not a personal attack i'm just pointing it out) so why don't we ALL try to change for the better and take on board some of the points we've discussed in this thread. we could all learn a thing or two. lets forget any type of ego right here and now, ego prevents development of the human mind, holds you back.

just my somewhat philosophical rant.

[=VG= SemlerPDX]

@Murder - thanks, well said.
Brought over from the last page, because screw it, I can.
AND it NEEDS to be understood in this forum. Lost in translation can be an issue, so can emotions.... we all need to take both in stride!

SemlerPDX =VG= LAN_WROTE ...

Castor =VG= LAN_WROTE ...

I give up, you know that my english aint that good so I cannot communicate in the way I mean. still you insist raping my comments

@ Gaz I see you have something personal against me so just PM me and lets get it over with, other wise you could've seen through my post and understood the true meaning behind it (which I guess I cant tell without someone else correcting to me, thanks a gain Semler.)

Screw Gaz, *(well, not literally, of course), but I have something against you if you are going to take criticism and difference of opinions so personally.

Time to take some chill pills and remember that this is an OPEN discussion, we are going to have different opinions, and we need to be able to talk to each other about our differences - not to berate or feel berated by the comments and criticisms.
How else would I know that I had to take off the "Where's the Beef?" T-Shirt when I had been wearing it 5 years after it was old? We need our friends to mirror back at us our flaws at times, and have the maturity to accept it or take it in stride.

No one hates you, Castor. Stay off the defensive - keep on topic, guys.
(And please, everyone, continue to try not to be offensive, but be truthful with your opinions on this topic.)
And, Gaz - I have different opinions than you on one or two matters, but I wouldn't kick you to the curb. Same with anyone who posts in this discussion.

If you let any of this get to you on a personal level, I will point and laugh at you. !rofl
Be mature, and be respectful. Basic stuff here.


PITN and Castor brought up good points -

PITN is so right about this being a rather limited simulation - we can try all we want, but it does seem the closer we get to any kind of "realistic" large group ops, we find ourselve with the very real (and not so entertaining) aspects such as "dry, dull" ops that need to be done by someone, while the other group "goes in for the glory".

It's almost like we need a video game reward system for the dull, boring logistics roles if we were to continue on a route to a "full realistic op" scenario to be simulated.


Castor mentioned that... "also the problem is that we dont learn that much from our mistakes, look at our missions: we do it and then leave. where is the after action report? we did it last time with Calvs missions."

Well, I feel some learn differently than others. Some prefer a debriefing while others play so often that they are quite clear on what happened, what went well, what went wrong, and what should be done differently the next time for maximum fun/success.

Since they take up several minutes, or longer, of "non-playing" downtime, I feel this would be more important and should be followed more if we were, say, a competitive clan. As we are casual, but serious about having fun - I suggest we do debriefings when appropriate, like Events or Large ACRE Ops, but nothing to say we can't have a more relaxed debriefing here on the site, over the days following the event, using the forums.

I can understand how some people may not have time or desire to hang around for 15 minutes after a long, 2-4 hour gaming session with ACRE and tons of restraint and patience. Forum is best bet in that particular example, in my opinion.

Castor =VG= LAN_WROTE ...

5. I like commanders.

Me too.

But, I hate the "automated" commander that is the "Server" in most persistant missions. Rather have a real evolving world with changing front lines, and a human commander offering up some sick ops.



!butcher IF ANY OF YOU START SLINGING MUD AT EACH OTHER IN PM's AS A RESULT OF THIS THREAD, I WILL SEND A FLAMING BAG OF DOGSHIT TO YOUR DOORSTEP! KEEP IT COOL, GUYS! KEEP IT CONSTRUCTIVE AND ON TOPIC - DON'T MAKE ME TURN THIS CAR AROUND, CAUSE I WILL AND THEN NO ONE WILL GET TO GO TO WALLY WORLD!

"He who makes a beast of himself gets rid of the pain of being a man" - Huxley

[=VG= Murderface0151]

i thought this may be appropriate, a few of the things he says in here rings true on every level. @other mods, delete if you believe inappropriate, you have my blessing. i just thought we may learn some key ideas and methods of thought.

[=VG= Gaz]

Right - I'd like to say quickly, my use of commander was stupid - i ment to put it as just someone who is constantly commanding you to do things where he cant see your point - Sorry for my miss use there...

@Castor i Genuinly dont have anything against you personally.... Lets be honest we both know, We're not the best to put in a cage together... Everyones seen that we dont get along greatly... But i have nothing against you per say... We just seem like two people who wouldent get along outside of VG? just the way it is?
We do differ on ideas quite regularly but? Meh its nothing... We differ on idea's of leadership that is evident.... I didnt mean to make you think i was personally attacking you, i didnt look back on my post thats my problem, now seeing it again it makes it look like i am trying to be extreamly offensive but i didnt mean it to sound like that mate.

@Sem i respect that you see a diferent idea to me fair anuf mate. That one wasnt extreamly acurate on how i look at it either but? Its a ruff start on in my general opinion. Is that EVERYONE is individual and they should all be capable of leading themselfs and everyone should be taken into account like diferent people would prefer to fight in a diferent setting? and that it should be heard and used generally as it poses a big advantage if someone is comfy in that enviroment..

Like i personally would really not like being in a mortar team for fear of wounding my own team with a mistake... But yeah Castor i didnt mean for it to sound like it was personally against you mate - we just really really differ on idea's of leadership? In turn It seems both of us are as stubborn as each other lol and we're not gona give in so its something that is just going to have to be accepted...
We still work fine in a team together and Hopefully still will after this..

EDIT: Sem i asume it was you that went through my first post and corrected spelling mistakes and sutch, cheers for that lol, Was in a rush when i typed it out and didnt really have time to check it all. PS. Love the helliboper

[suomikeizari]

@Gaz, I apologize to you too mate, as I was clearly on the defensive there and trying to make myself a martyr or something subconsiously..

We do have a lot of different opinions but that should only enrich VG not make us quarrel between each other my bad on that part.

I'll try to look things more from your perspective, keep things short and and understandable.

Also wont come here when I'm in a bad mood, this is not the place/way to unwind.

Yes we think different but we can easily work together, need to just stay out of each others hair :D

and Semler, you Blud, Savage, PITN and Poffadder are like the glue who keeps us together, thank you for that.

[=VG= SemlerPDX]

It takes a real man, and strong character to say the things you both just did.

It's the nature of social networking on a global level that these things happen (it's why we don't talk politics or religion/philosophy here as a policy).

And I for one love this thread (skimming past anything off topic) because it shows truth and the different opinions that I, for one, need to hear because I very much DO want to make my own video game (with VG) one day, and will learn anything I need, beit programming or "best practices", and it needs to be a game of the people for the people - This is gold to me, and will direct my efforts for years to come.

Keep up the great ideas and opinions.

How about maps, locals, and that kind of variety?

I found PR cool in that, though one match could take hours, when it was over, it was a new map.

I also like Arma persistant missions where the "island" stays the same, and I prefer HUGE maps, too. That way, each area is kinda like a new map. But what I like most, and the most CONTROVERSIAL, is that in DayZ I started with NO map, and it was cool to orient. Even with an Online map picture, it was so fun, and when I got a map, I felt I had earned it - that I didn't fully need it, and that it was a luxury.

Unfortunately, most people don't agree with my opinion, and they always need that map or sometimes even GPS to feel comfortable and entertained as well in any given (random) game. Only in events does it kinda become acceptable to them to not have a map, if say, their FTL had one or whatever the situation may be.


Anyway, what do you all think about that?

[=VG= Wooz2770]

i like the idea Semler, and on the topic of maps, Taviana seems like a really interesting map: http://www.armaholic.com/page.php?id=15085
haven?t had time to test it out myself yet, but from what i?ve heard, it?s HUGE

[Terremer]

should do a mission where you start in some random place with very little gear ( no map, and shitty rifles or pistols even), like if your chopper crash landed or something, and you have to like sneak into a nearby enemy town to regear and hopefully find out where you are and how to get back to base. Would be interesting

[suomikeizari]

yeah most feel comfortable with a map and a GPS.
This idea has come up to my mind before as well:

- What if we made a persistant world gameplay based on stalker?
- there would be 3-4 (4 if possible) factions warring for territory in a Chernarus type of map.
- The map should be dotted with 4 mainbases and many outposts.
- the areas outside these bases and outposts are covered with mutants (takes care of soloing and forces teamplay)
- also factions FREEDOM and DUTY take care of our little problem: Freedom is really loose stalker group while Duty is very very strict and military like.

- more ideas? I'm in school now so I cant finish it properly ;)

[=VG= Murderface0151]

you have many ideas, perhaps it is time that you went through some scripting lessons with Sem, Solar or Poff etc

[suomikeizari]

yeah, could also start working with Sav on this stalker Idea (at least on mission level) If we agrees to take me under his wing of course :)

[=VG= poffadder]

SemlerPDX =VG= LAN_WROTE ...


I also like Arma persistant missions where the "island" stays the same, and I prefer HUGE maps, too. That way, each area is kinda like a new map. But what I like most, and the most CONTROVERSIAL, is that in DayZ I started with NO map, and it was cool to orient. Even with an Online map picture, it was so fun, and when I got a map, I felt I had earned it - that I didn't fully need it, and that it was a luxury.

Unfortunately, most people don't agree with my opinion, and they always need that map or sometimes even GPS to feel comfortable and entertained as well in any given (random) game. Only in events does it kinda become acceptable to them to not have a map, if say, their FTL had one or whatever the situation may be.

I tried to fix the map problem a couple months ago by changing the veteran difficulty class so that players couldn't see themselves or friendlies on the map. I wanted this implemented so that players would be forced to be aware of where they are and where friendlies are. Not many people enjoyed it because they are so used to seeing their little blue marker but I think with more use, we could all get comfortable with real navigation and orienteering. Maybe vehicles that have a tactical awareness system should have the markers but it would be difficult to remove markers for one and not the other.

Also as admins, mission editors and designers, we need to make sure that global and side is either turned off or is reserved for special cases. This is mainly because some people, including myself, don't like the use of map markers (they are fine in close proximity or in the briefing.) Infantry would not have access to data link systems like SADL (well JTACs would but I wouldn't know how to separate it) so points of intrest on the map should be communicated in coordinates.

We should find a way to implement a data link system for certain vehicles, JTACs and commanders.


Let me know what you think about not having unit markers and position makers on the map.

I better return my attention to my computer systems architecture lecture.

[=VG= SemlerPDX]

poffadder =VG= LAN_WROTE ...


Also as admins, mission editors and designers, we need to make sure that global and side is either turned off or is reserved for special cases. This is mainly because some people, including myself, don't like the use of map markers (they are fine in close proximity or in the briefing.) Infantry would not have access to data link systems like SADL (well JTACs would but I wouldn't know how to separate it) so points of intrest on the map should be communicated in coordinates.

We should find a way to implement a data link system for certain vehicles, JTACs and commanders.


Let me know what you think about not having unit markers and position makers on the map.

I better return my attention to my computer systems architecture lecture.

Haha! thanks for the input! Keep up the hard work!

I have confirmed and tested a new system involving the Map. Players have it, but only 2 channels available are Direct and Vehicle - as in (tested) we are standing next to each other or are in same vehicle, I make a mark on map, it's on your's too.

If I move away or out of vehicle, and make a mark, only I can see it. Just as if I was standing next to someone and we both make marks on our maps. And if too far away, we need to use COORDS.

I intend to use or write a "share map" function as well, but what I think would be super cool, would be custom maps that are smaller sections of the full one. Obviously, that is crazy hard work, and would involve 5 different maps (1/4 for each quadrant, and the default "full" map) - just a thought, too hard for me to implement.

or....new idea where player has no map himself, but it's mounted in the HMMWV:

usmc_hmmwv_1 addAction["View Map","scripts\view_master_map.sqf"];<br /><br />-inside view_master_map.sqf:<br /><br /><br />player addWeapon "ACE_Map";<br /><br />done_viewing_map = false;<br /><br />openMap [true,true]; //forces map open, cannot close again//<br /><br />hintSilent "When you are done viewing the map, click one time anywhere";<br /><br />onMapSingleClick {openMap [false, false];done_viewing_map = true;true;};<br />        <br />waitUntil{done_viewing_map};<br /><br />player removeWeapon "ACE_Map";<br />OnMapSingleClick {}; //reset//<br />

Either way - the dependancy on blue marks on map is going away fast. I don't like it, and feel it is only good for "casual games" and other "archade" style game modes for Arma 2. I don't feel in any way that it's "too hardcore" to not have those blue markers in our ACRE styled missions, be they persistant or "1 life to die" Events.

Am writing a simpler Primary Weapon Selection GUI that should keep people from "suckling at the ammo box teet" for 15 minutes on each RTB - but I gotta say, it's the huge number of different M4's that is killin me here - taking FOREVER!
Makes me want to write my "scope pack kit" so that people can just "grab a bag of scopes" that fit their rifle, and in the field can "assemble" the rifle with an alternate scope. Just like the Silencer Script, but with Scopes. If it has a varient with several scopes, then they can be attached in the field (will make an appropriate "build animation and timer" so it's not "instant")

Keep up the input, guys!!

(@Castor - even if you don't get into the scripting side, I will never discount your ideas for game modes, or anyones ideas - they go onto the back burner in my head, and may very well get implemented or used in some way. Although, if you were to get into it, you could start like Carry, and just play around in the 2D editor in Arma, using triggers and physically placed units to visually describe your mission, and Savage or I could then make it into a full mission. Either way, keep up the cool ideas and different gaming opinions!)

[=VG= Gaz]

Like the Scope idea, seems quite interesting... always thought about it myself being as i dont like carrying around an M4 with an ACOG but i enjoy the iron sights... Then the situation comes where i need an ACOG and am like :/...

The map idea is pritty good, i always enjoyed FTL more when i didnt see everyone on the map and had to communicate constantly, i remember on one mision where we had to relay coms though Murder in the A10 because we had a mountain between Delta ops, and the marines.

I was going to start scriping a while back with Solar, Nothing really came of it though, about all i learned before we stopped was how to read a script well...

[suomikeizari]

@Semler yeah that sounds pretty nice, only time will tell what happen next. (crazy crazy mutant missions with us armed from head to toe)
about the 15min sitting at the weapon crates:
in missions this can be taken away just by giving the players a kit already,
if you're planning an event on MCC I guess you can restrict the kits somehow? like in patrol ops.
I think such a thing will be unneeded in casual play just for the reason that some people like sitting at the crate for ages xD,
that scope thing sounds a bit difficult but I'd use it if its available, kick ass feature!
for now all we can do is give advices in the field about what weapon to use.

@Gaz, yeah I hear it takes a lot of nerves and patience :P

[=VG= SavageCDN (Inactive Duty)]

Anyone that wants to learn about mission making (we'll start simple) just fire me a PM and we can set up a time to meet.

ColdnFreezin is interested.. Castor? Anyone else?

[suomikeizari]

yeap, we just need to get a good time, anywhere between 1200-1900(GMT) should be good to me, Im rarely home at weekends.

[=VG= SavageCDN (Inactive Duty)]

Well I usually work during those hours (7am - 2pm here) so gonna be tough.. perhaps on a Friday. It doesn't have to be a set day/time every week we can mix it up.

[=VG= Wooz2770]

I would like to learn some more about mission making, i?m only available on the weekends though, but ill try and watch some youtube videos to freshen up my memory:)

[=VG= SavageCDN (Inactive Duty)]

Moved Off Topic posts from the MSO thread:

Castor =VG= LAN_WROTE ...

guys we gotta quit using Arty and mk19s while there is +5 people ingame. it sucks when someone is raining fire on the AO (especially when there is civvies in there) and you are just sitting there unable to do shit.
PLEASE quit using the OP weapons, everyone else gets bored due to that.

Wooz =VG= LAN_WROTE ...

Castor that mk19 was being used properly, we were against a superior number and we set that thing up as fire support, all the targets were being checked for distance and the mk19 was then zero?ed in. i?ll agree that we were all bored at that point, but the op weapons weren?t the reason for that.

the reason we were all hanging5 back was because we had cleared villages already and things were getting repetetiv, so we decided to bring a MK19, javelin and a stryker.

And i don?t think this is the right forum post to be posting it on:)

Castor =VG= LAN_WROTE ...

@Wooz, I did ask you guys was there civvies in there, the answer i got was ''I don't know, lol'' but true enough you guys seemed a bit bored, the truth is that you still must think about the other players, there were more than us playing there who didn't seem to be too thrilled about that. :/ anyways, its good to test the weapons so my argument is kind of pointless :)

Gaz =VG= LAN_WROTE ...

Dont mean to be "That guy" but take this to that "arma Leadership and other arma related tactics" Thread please..

Oh and I haven't forgotten about doing some mission making sessions just need to find the time to get it organized :)

[=VG= Wooz2770]

Your argument wasn?t pointless Castor, i did at 1 point fire off a mag into the village disregarding if there were civvies, but as i said most of my targets were spotted and ranged, and half the players that had joined didn?t bother to join our TS even after numerous appeals, so they were starting to grind my gears :D but yeah i was also in the wrong here:)

[=VG= SemlerPDX]

Where was this? When? After we left the Fal Insurgency last night? or was this earlier? What server has Civis? And pubbers not in TS3 (I assume it was ACRE as you stated you were appealing to them to join TS3)
!dntknw

[=VG= Wooz2770]

Yeah this was during the AAS mission that we?ve been testing lately:D

[=VG= Eclipse002]

Dont mind me...im just training my skills (or lack off) as a pilot.