Open Discussion - Teamplay, Leadership, Mission Variety, and COOP Gameplay in Arma 2

[dman248]

I would like to state some things.

Commanders are the most important person that can be in game, This is leading many squads from the back so other squad leaders can focus on there squad. I will say that as the commander you can not see what the squad leader can see, this is why we remain in contact at all times asking for logstat.

Now onto leading, someone said that if there leader was doing something they don't approve of then they would call them out on them, and would want the same. That's bullshit, If I'm leading you into battle I don't have time to argue/explain every little detail on why I moving you to the location or why your running across a street with a possibly to be shot. Second, if your the leader you should never let anyone question your orders. You look weak in the eyes of others when you second guess yourself.

Always remember that if you cant stand anyone else leading you (ex. myself) then you need to take control and lead the squad, but not if you didn't slot for that role.

I don't have alot of time, ill write more when I get home.

[=VG= Gaz]

The idea behind this is people dont turn around and say "Oh Your a compleat idiot, what are you doing? This is compleatly stupid and you cant lead." They should respectfully comment on there idea not compleatly obliterate yours, if you cant take the fact your wrong on your idea, then why are you leading?

If you cant take someone telling you you've messed up, then you shouldent even bother with it. its as simple as that. if you mess up, you should be called on it, no point trying to argue to someone that running the wrong direction is some how right is there?

And again, we dont tend to just run in all guns blazing there is generally a plan set in motion. there for you should have enough time before the kickstart to shout out your idea's if you dont listen, dont bloody lead, your going to get people killed when you can avoid it by listening to someone elses idea. Its as simple as that. Just because ur idea seams right and you feel like someones showed you up, dosent mean there wrong and you should dis-reguard what they say.

And my point to be was if someone tells you to run across the road with the possibility to get shot, and you see a better way that isnt running 200m off on your own, then you should take it and not blindly run into the firing like because your squad leader said hey i need you to go there.

And my point about commanders came across wrong, i didnt mean it to sound like it did as i stated to everyone afterwards... And i find a commander who demands you follow him to his every letter is wrong, a commander dosent always see what is going on where you are and what your doing, even after you explain it you can find some commanders wont get it, so you should, do what you see fit as a squad leader to keep your team alive.. that is what i ment to get across, a commander that expects you to follow his every command is wrong. He should have the common sence to understand what is going on at the front is diferent to what he thinks most of the time... and that squads cant do exactly what he states all the time..

[suomikeizari]

I think you guys are talking of 2 completely different things, OPS and persistant (INS/AAS/Conquest gameplay)
Gaz's gameplay would probably confuse the shit out of the unit. or at least be less efficient than Dman's unit would be (OPS).
while Dmans playing would feel too stiff, making the game unenjoyable in some level, at least to some/most of us.

BTW. I totally agree with Dman and do agree with Gaz if its not an OP, maybe not even then, depends on the situation.

[=VG= SemlerPDX]

You seem to think that commanding or leading involves all this micro-managing, and I think it stems from a desire to lead. Just know that leading involves more than telling others what to do. If you take the time to trust a team members strengths and instincts, you can benefit from merely telling them the goal in a broad sense (We move North, then East; searching for Cache and more Intel. Keep close to each other within a few blocks, report often)

As opposed to micro-managed "you watch north in this alley, other guy you watch south, other guy you watch east. Okay, contact spotted - he's down. Okay everyone move to the next ally. I want you on that corner there, other guy you go to this point, other guy do this..."

That is just way too much and I am starting to get annoyed that it is even still happening. If you need to spend some more time training your team, do it, because that kind of micro-management is gonna get your team killed in the field more often than not.

From the tiny fireteam, to the big picture, a leader should know when to get specific ("1 - watch that way, 2 - watch that way, 3 - I want you here, etc.") and when to trust that his teammates know how to move and cover any assigned area. I see way too much disregard for this, and that is where all the "commander haters" and people who rather lone wolf it as a result. If someone desires to lead - fine.

Keep developing those skills, because trust me, just wanting to lead and doing it often does not a good leader make. One must be open to constructive criticism and willing to learn, change, and adapt. With the role comes the need to be able to train others, as well. Again, just having the knowledge and being able to present it does not a good teacher make. Communicating with someone is not only a matter of words, but of understanding the person - a leader must know a few things about his men, and thereby exploit their strengths, know where teaching may be needed, and how to lead that person or persons.

In a persistent mission, this also makes the leader responsible for the "fun" of the operation - it's up to him to put his group into action that will provide an enjoyable Arma game. In a "Mil-Sim Op", it will be his role to not only have fun, but coordinate and act out orders given, and pass them on in a way that makes sense to the game being played.

That being said, and like Dman said above, YOU choose your leaders, and if one does not want to be lead by someone in a game either because of personal reasons, or just that they do not value the skill set of that particular leader, then you don't need to choose them. If signed up for an Op, one can privately request to the Host a different fireteam/squad. Eazy Peazy.

There are certainly people I would never follow in a game, not just because I don't know/appreciate their current skill set, but also for the fact that I prefer to play with the same people I've been with and trusted for years. We generally know each other well enough that these "overly micro-management issues" never come up, we know each others "in-game" faces very well, and know what to expect of each other.

This should be the goal of any leader - even in VG, though we are all brothers, we all have closer friends than others here or there, "battle buddies", and tend to game closely with them. Personally, I find it the best way to learn to lead in any game by first finding one of my closer friends who has played that game and learning from them (instead of merely jumping into a lead role because I have lead in other games before).

Through this kind of close squad play, I have become closer to people in VG that I never even really knew. Starchy, Sparky, and Dave22644 are good examples; we play all the time now, and laugh our asses off sometimes - good games!

!cheers

[=VG= SemlerPDX]

BTW - Leaders are not born, they are made. Either soldiers who fought and served and became something like an NCO or were in Military Officer training and trained specifically to lead.

This route can be followed in video games, too. Either spend tons of time playing, learning, and then when you feel ready, lead - or by reading, training, observing, maybe signing up with groups that have training modules like 7th Cav, UO, ShacTac, and others, and of course carry over knowledge from years of leading in other games doesn't hurt.

Point being, we see bad leaders all the time, in Planetside 2 especially - a good leader knows when he needs to adapt, and when there is more yet to learn.

[PITN]

Leaders can be trained all day but that wont make a good leader. Strict military discipline can backfire aswell. Look at the HMS Bounty. William Bligh was a brilliant man but a fucking prick to those under him. His intelligence allowed him to get out of most of the stupidity he himself created by blaming it on the those under him who were less educated or less eloquent. Of course his superiors decided to promote him even though they were aware of his shortcomings. Freinds close and enemies closer and all that jazz. I still see it happening today.

A training regimine based on current military practices needs to be decided and based on current docterine from sources such as the USMC, USA or BAF. Then tweak those techniques to the game enviornment. Once a baseline is established you need to train. Train the most experianced first and work out the kinks. Then break up into smaller groups and train the less experianced. The more you train the better your communication and the less you have to manage your team.

Remember, whether a leader is right or wrong your job is complete the mission by his order (unless it is illegal). Since it is a game, the costs to human lives will be temproary and the after action review at the end of the day is the time to bring up the good, bad and ugly. Work the shit out in training or don't work it out at all.

[suomikeizari]

PITN LAN_WROTE ...


Remember, whether a leader is right or wrong your job is complete the mission by his order (unless it is illegal). Since it is a game, the costs to human lives will be temproary and the after action review at the end of the day is the time to bring up the good, bad and ugly. Work the shit out in training or don't work it out at all.[/size][/color]

this.

also now we are making progress! PITN just gave us a hand at making something out of this topic! I myself dont know shit about these doctrines so we need someone with actual experience to give us one, I'd love to have for example Blud's thoughts on this thing, dont forget that we can take the best out of numerous doctrines and forge our own! that would be fantastic!

[=VG= SemlerPDX]

Might be more appropriate for a Mil-Sim Clan or gaming group....I've been following Poffadder through all hell on earth and would follow him some more. This ain't 7th Cav

Just read through the ShacTac Arma 2 Players Guide and you're golden.

[suomikeizari]

of course we dont all have to do it, but some of us (me for example) would like this, just take a few hints of how to do it and do it!
we dont ALL have to go the same path. we are a community after all.
and I bet you guys wouldnt mind having a hardcore Mil-sim group made as well (or?)

[PITN]

SemlerPDX =VG= LAN_WROTE ...

Might be more appropriate for a Mil-Sim Clan or gaming group....I've been following Poffadder through all hell on earth and would follow him some more. This ain't 7th Cav

Just read through the ShacTac Arma 2 Players Guide and you're golden.

7th CAV is an excellent group but they are extremely strict in command structure. I've been there and I've done that and it eventually starts to feels like a second job. That was not what I was suggesting. I said pick a doctorine to use that vocabulary to quickly communicate intent and execute sound tactical movement. But there needs to be training. By completeing drills and repeating the task over and over the unit as a whole will benefit from it. I know that doing something over and over is monotonous and boring. To do well someone has to do the boring parts. i.e. siting on a hill looking at an empty valley, or walking the long and safe way around an objective, or waiting 15 minutes so the assault team can get into a better position. If no one is willing to drill then let the thread die and just continue the status quo.

Let's do a test without google. How many of you know how to do these tasks. Just reply with the number you know how to do. Example: I know how to do 5 out of 8 of those tasks.

What is Echelon left?
What is a sector of fire?
What is bounding overwatch?
How long do you stand up during movement under fire?
How do you cross a road using security?
How do set up an ambush?
How do you withdraw under fire?
How do you do react to contact?
How do you break contact?
What is suppressive fire?

[Guest ColdNfreeziN]

I know how to do at least 7 of those 10 tasks, maybe 8 but i'm unsure on that one so I will just say 7

[=VG= Wooz2770]

i know what 8 out of 10 of those things are and that?s because i read the ShackTack guide, but i?d have to say that i need training or hands on experience with 4 out of 8 of those things

[=VG= Murderface0151]

9/10, i have no idea how long to stand up during movement under fire.

[=VG= SemlerPDX]

Depends on available cover - basically, dictated by situation, you can move standing up under fire if you gots some cover like big rocks, trees, etc. - otherwise you are stuck with low or high crawl...

I am familiar with 10/10 of these things, but have not drilled with others online in game, and that is the key. One man cannot cross a street with security, of course.
It takes a group, a team - and one willing to train on these concepts.

Like PITN said, it would be wise to adopt these concepts and practice in small teams. Just yesterday, I was in a small group of Rangers, we had a foot contact close in a semi-urban situation, and our vehicle gunner was reloading.
The order came down to dismount and secure the area around the vehicle. When I dismounted, that tango was 30 degrees to my left, so I swung my crosshairs directly after dismount and sent the contact back to hell - unfortunately, every other member who dismounted also came around that side of the vehicle and focused their attention on the now-dead contact.
On the OTHER side of the MRAP, a second contact proceeded to rape our squad, with me taking many rounds, barely survived...

The plain fact is, when contact is light, people tend to concentrate on the only reported contact, instead of securing an area, and trusting their team mates to watch other sectors.
People do too many frustrating things, such as staring at the medic or patient in a "healing" situation, people staring at others with gun up (not on SAFE) and either ALT-TABBING or some kind of AFK that eventually results in a misfire injury to another player, and people new to the game of Arma 2 using grenades (these are notoriously tricky in Arma 2 and require experience and know-how in order to use safely and effectively).

Getting on the same page with a group is imperative in some of these more difficult ACE/ACRE settings - everything takes longer, and therefore much more is at stake. Things need to be done with more patience, and drilling on the above concepts would be ideal.

Perhaps some automated in-game training scenarios would help, like the Kill House on the VG Warmup Map has helped so many to learn the basics of CQC building clearing. I recommend people download some Military Field Manuals to your smart phones (if you have one) and read/browse through them when not at your PC, say on a bus ride, waiting room, etc.
I got a bunch, including survival manuals, on my "semi-smart" phone, in the event that I get stuck and need to directly reference some plant or medical treatment while camping far away from civilization.
(gonna use PITN's list and some cool drawings from some FM's)

[suomikeizari]

Ive gone thru those just so I could SQlead in UO.
I have also noticed what Semler said, it is unfortunately very common problem, as is some orders like passing orders down the line (no radio in SQ), every time I get a mission like this I have to say the same thing a dozen times before people realize that EVERYONE has to do it, same problem exists in many things like scanning the surroundings or staying in formation

[=VG= Calv]

PITN LAN_WROTE ...

SemlerPDX =VG= LAN_WROTE ...

Might be more appropriate for a Mil-Sim Clan or gaming group....I've been following Poffadder through all hell on earth and would follow him some more. This ain't 7th Cav

Just read through the ShacTac Arma 2 Players Guide and you're golden.

7th CAV is an excellent group but they are extremely strict in command structure. I've been there and I've done that and it eventually starts to feels like a second job. That was not what I was suggesting. I said pick a doctorine to use that vocabulary to quickly communicate intent and execute sound tactical movement. But there needs to be training. By completeing drills and repeating the task over and over the unit as a whole will benefit from it. I know that doing something over and over is monotonous and boring. To do well someone has to do the boring parts. i.e. siting on a hill looking at an empty valley, or walking the long and safe way around an objective, or waiting 15 minutes so the assault team can get into a better position. If no one is willing to drill then let the thread die and just continue the status quo.

Let's do a test without google. How many of you know how to do these tasks. Just reply with the number you know how to do. Example: I know how to do 5 out of 8 of those tasks.

What is Echelon left?
What is a sector of fire?
What is bounding overwatch?
How long do you stand up during movement under fire?
How do you cross a road using security?
How do set up an ambush?
How do you withdraw under fire?
How do you do react to contact?
How do you break contact?
What is suppressive fire?

All of them.

But despite my limitless knowledge (and modesty) I'll be the first to acknowledge that I am at best an average leader. Because I know what a good leader is, I am well aware of my own shortcomings in that regard, the main one being that I suck at hanging back and ordering others to do stuff. So while I am not bad as an FTL where I can still be hands on, I struggle with any higher form of command.

Murderface =VG= LAN_WROTE ...

9/10, i have no idea how long to stand up during movement under fire.

If a bullet hits you in the face, it was too long.

[=VG= SemlerPDX]

Calv LAN_WROTE ...

If a bullet hits you in the face, it was too long.

!lmao

[=VG= Gaz]

SemlerPDX =VG= LAN_WROTE ...

Calv LAN_WROTE ...

If a bullet hits you in the face, it was too long.

!lmao

Single Greatest thing i've heard this year :D

[=VG= Murderface0151]

pfft it's totally the lag when that happens to me :P

[=VG= Calv]

Murderface =VG= LAN_WROTE ...

pfft it's totally the lag when that happens to me :P

:D

Best way to think of it is: You're firing towards a known enemy position and one of them suddenly stands up. How long would it take you to aim and fire on them?

We're generally talking seconds so by the time you've stood and taken a couple steps you should really already be diving back to prone.

[Jager]

I'm a firm believer in drilling, if I take some time and look back on the ops I've logged the most successful one's has been Ops where our team did standard drills before the main mission.

One idea that just sprung to mind is a simple checklist

-Contact drills (theory, practice till proficient)
-Formations (patrol, firing line, crossing etc)

With the basics drilled into your skull there shouldn't be any zone left uncovered ( ideally ) and with everyone knowing what's to be expected we can adapt, ftl stops so we move out in defensive formation giving cover.

From the moment I started playing with ace I had respect for the CoC, ftl says jump I jump even if I disagree, there is plenty of time to discuss that after a mission.

Commander has a plan he shares with SQL, FTL's, Support -> Shares their portion of the plan with the squad, elects 2inC within the squad.

Boots on the ground might see a different solution to a task and might adapt to terrain or situation ( CMD gave OP A but A has no direct LOS to area they are supposed to give fire support to ), in such a situation a simple update on the net should be sufficient, more radical changes needs confirmation to avoid any incidents with support elements or other squads on the ground.

In my experience micromanagement in any part of the CoC just leads to clouded coms, the basic plan laid out is your guide and if you some how chose to adapt while the mission is a go CMD needs to know.
But other than that the CMD trusts the FTL's on the ground to do his bidding, if the objective is to move a pair of swimming trunks it does not matter how it's done ( moving them by hand or by explosives :p )

In an ideal world we work on the principle of Think, transmit, talk.

Alpha 1,2,3 and 4 are getting airlifted into the AO they got their own tasks and set out, 1 & 2 reach their positions Report, 3 gets engaged underway and report that in, 4 is close by and offers assistance.

All alpha elements know what's going on, cmd knows and if support (cas, arty etc) is needed CMD can set that in motion.

In my experience a flat net can work but requires very strict radio coms, our model has CMD + FTL's in the active loop, pilots in the ao often fly with a 148 which they listen in on as well as a 117 dedicted for CCT / CMD / (FTL's when they got the go ahead from CMD for guided CAS).
And all chatter on CMD net is filtered for the grunts in each squad, works well for us when we are switched on.

But in the end every outfit has different people and personalities so SOP differ a tad but I believe a common ground in basic drilling is needed for any outfit to work well.

[=VG= SavageCDN (Inactive Duty)]

Road crossing with security and how long to stand up are the only 2 I'd be iffy about (other than the obvious "not long" answer).

I'm with Calv on leadership.. I can recognize a good leader but I'm not very good myself. That's not to say I don't know how to lead or plan an assault (in fact the planning stage is where I'm good at), just I don't actually do well once the firing starts. Maybe that comes with practice I dunno.

Jager LAN_WROTE ...

In my experience micromanagement in any part of the CoC just leads to clouded coms, the basic plan laid out is your guide and if you some how chose to adapt while the mission is a go CMD needs to know.
But other than that the CMD trusts the FTL's on the ground to do his bidding, if the objective is to move a pair of swimming trunks it does not matter how it's done ( moving them by hand or by explosives :p )

^ This - great point. Over-managing just makes for confusion for the squad. A great example is the other day in MSO we had a confusing ROE while driving to an AO.... stop in certain situations, push through in others, stop for IEDs, go for armor... etc. Really all that needs to be said is push through on contact (or stop... or whatever)... everything else is common sense (ie: don't drive over IEDs). If it's not simple people get confused once the firing starts and things go wrong.

We all learn from experience so there is nothing negative here... it's great we can discuss this stuff!!

[suomikeizari]

SavageCDN =VG= LAN_WROTE ...


^ This - great point. Over-managing just makes for confusion for the squad. A great example is the other day in MSO we had a confusing ROE while driving to an AO.... stop in certain situations, push through in others, stop for IEDs, go for armor... etc. Really all that needs to be said is push through on contact (or stop... or whatever)... everything else is common sense (ie: don't drive over IEDs). If it's not simple people get confused once the firing starts and things go wrong.

Aye, that was my bad.
I was pretty confused with the CMD + SQL role, probably while giving a SQL briefing some of the stuff was missed by the whole group and while doing CMD brief I seemed to micro-manage.
(which I ultimately did, did not end up in overflowing coms but did cause multiple casualties)

EDIT: just came to my mind, someone was talking that ''just leading wont make you a good leader'' or something like that, well I disagree, atleast on my case, I myself havent been able to do ANY kind of training sessions so almost 100% of my knowledge about arma comes from Combat. Still every time I lead a SQ I try to go through a simple checklist before mission start.

1. ROE.
2. Sectors.
3. actions on contact.
4. formations (i prefer loose formations myself, more concentrating on spacing)
5. Other actions depending on mission (passing orders down the line, use of vehicles etc.
6. DON'T TOUCH ENEMY CORPSES. (should be obvious but I see this all day all night in ARMA, this rule depends on the situation)
I dont actually have a written down drill but this is a basic form of it, I bet I forgot something but I'm in hurry now.

My primary source of experience is UO, and while they are not as strict as before you still have to know basic radio signals and well of course leadership.
I don't think myself as a ''good'' leader as jager and calv said but as a difference I'm trying to get there.

[=VG= SavageCDN (Inactive Duty)]

Sorry Castor did not mean to single you out or anything... it was just a good example that my brain could remember :)

I think if you've got decent squad leaders then there is no real need to micro-manage anything... simple, clear instructions seem to have the greatest chance of success.

[suomikeizari]

np man :) I did kind of fuck up there and you actually pointed it out pretty gently, hahha !lolol

gotta make sure we have a CO only, not some combination of 2 leaders.