COOP - PvP discussion con't from chatbox

[=VG= SavageCDN (Inactive Duty)]

This might be a better place than the chatbox :)


Jarema on Thursday 28 July 2011 - 23:39:08

Have to comment on the AI vs Human thing here.

AI uses hacks, I know this and can deal with it.

Humans can use hacks and that alone is the reason I don't pvp.

Played BF2 for years only to find out our old clan leader was and is a hacker. When he stepped aside and gave leadership to someone else they enabled the anti hack program thing and caught him red handed.
He didn't like the fact so he hacked into all of the original clan members BF2 account and F with them.
That is why my M.Jarema account is a 4 star general.

On top of that I can't deal with people's internet mouths they piss me off.

If you can eliminate the hacks and hacker 100% then you have my pvp support.

So when hell freezes over, world hunger ends, and we have world peace without radical Islam I'll pvp with you all day long.




bullet =VG= Bones on Friday 29 July 2011 - 00:49:30
Can't people still use hacks in COOP? And what is the difference between if the AI uses them and a human player?

I still think you guys are missing the point. I am not saying that you should play PvP against random server players. i am saying that we should try it out against each other. For the most part all of you are a tight knit group. Are you not in the least bit curious how say Jarema's platoon of soldiers would stack up against Semlers? ( not picking on you two, just the quickest names I could think of)


bullet Jarema on Friday 29 July 2011 - 04:26:08
AI hacks are controlled when human hacks are used to take control.

Cheating bastards aside it is the attitudes that people have that really bug me. The whole "pro/pwn" shit is just too much for me. Its a game kiddies not a sport or event. Anyone from 8-80 blind crippled or crazy can play a game. People gloating about their "skill" makes my foot want to go right up their ass. I try to be a very modest person and have a very low tolerance for smug arrogant Sons of B1tches. In the end it boils down to the drama factor involved in pvp and that will never change, given human nature.


bullet Calv on Friday 29 July 2011 - 06:34:41
Not playing PvP games due to concern for hacking is a bit of an over-reaction.
I've been playing online since Unreal Tournament and ARMA is the first game I've played against bots. Rarely have I been in a game with a cheater or hacker though I have been accused of such things many times.
And people gloat about their skill regardless of game mode, I've seen plenty of people in insurgency just interested in getting the most kills or finding all the caches first.
It would be interesting to give PvP ARMA a try but it would have to be some kind of objective based mission, preferably with as few vehicles as possible.


meh.. PvP can be a lot of fun in the right environment (AAS as Calv suggested or TDM or CTI). I'm creating a forum thread for this to ease dman's concerns

[=VG= SavageCDN (Inactive Duty)]

In FPS games I've always played vs humans (since DOOM LAN parties!!) - it's really only since joining VG that I've played COOP (players vs AI) - that and FPS AI in the past has been pretty bad/predictable/non-existant. I love the teamplay of COOP but really you can get that in PvP as well just need the right players/environment.

Certainly PvP is more... tense and challenging than vs AI. I think that a game like Arma would be a good thing to try PvP as the game itself kinda weeds out the idiots and pwn kiddies.

There is a regular group that plays PR deployment (gotta get back into that!!) ... perhaps they can add their $0.02

[Bones]

SavageCDN LAN_WROTE ...

In FPS games I've always played vs humans (since DOOM LAN parties!!) - it's really only since joining VG that I've played COOP (players vs AI) - that and FPS AI in the past has been pretty bad/predictable/non-existant. I love the teamplay of COOP but really you can get that in PvP as well just need the right players/environment.

Certainly PvP is more... tense and challenging than vs AI. I think that a game like Arma would be a good thing to try PvP as the game itself kinda weeds out the idiots and pwn kiddies.

There is a regular group that plays PR deployment (gotta get back into that!!) ... perhaps they can add their $0.02

I wholeheartedly agree with you on this.

If VG did set some PvP up, even if it was on a once a week, or once a month for that matter, I would sit down and hop on the VG servers. I believe a game like ARMA where "tactics, communications, and strategy" is of the utmost importance, would absolutely rock if you could muster enough like-minded players.

[=VG= SemlerPDX]

Here's my PM to Bones on the subject, sure it's all relevant here:

Just, many of us flocked here (players of PR and such) for the COOP element, I know I did. I hate playing against humans and would hate playing against my own mates even more.

I could give several examples why, one being, bots are consistant, I wont run into a bot who happens to play this game all day, every day, and is soooooo much more of a PRO than I'd ever hope to be.

So, it's like playing a match of unknown difficulty, instead of one in which enemy to enemy share consistant skill levels. I don't want to play against the Human element - you may consider yourself lucky you haven't had the many horrible experiences we all have with assholes in PvP. They abound, trust me on this. Our only edge now is adminship and server powers - still not enough in my book.

I have tried what you suggested, quite recently, actually. I played a PvP (or TvT really) against and with various VG members and admins. I had to stay about 3 rounds so no one could accuse me of rage quitting. I gave it a try, and found my opinion remains unchanged on this matter.

I played one of the original MP online TvT wargames (3 of them) Socom I, II, and III for Playstation2 for [&@#$&!] YEARS! Like 4 or so. We had no "admins" or "rule enforcers" just a kick vote - and you know how democracy works!!!

As far as playing and shooting humans - been there, done that.
And I was a clan leader then, a straight killer who didn't form a clan, it formed around me of other highly skilled players - but now that AI is not scripted, but it can think...I have no need for human targets. They can now all be my teammates, and more and more to make up an entire platoon!!!

I know we're not "that old", but in a way, I find huge differences between my (and our) tastes vs. those of our younger members.
I just have less wargame "wanderlust" and found one that has mods with human like AI that I can truly, TRULY respect as an enemy.

I will stick with what I love: COOP vs. the smartest bot AI I can get my hands on, which is actually ACE bots. Now we're back to standard AI bots in Insurgency (arma).

Perhaps we'll hold ACE/ACRE Insurgency events periodically, but for now, the Insurgency/Domination servers are the only set of bots I fight.

[=VG= Outlanders]

Don't forget about PR Arma 2. I think they are making it for pvp.

[=VG=Hans]

if i can,t play coop a game, i don,t buy it. the coop games start with Wolfenstein Doom Rise of the Traid Hexen to Total Annihilation. me and my brother have many fun to play it in coop. than the game developer change to deathmatch and the fun is gone. many great games only in deathmatch thats really a pity.

[IHarryXx]

Im mixed here, I love playing COOP yet sometimes PVP comes out on top. ArmaII is one here, The COOP gamemodes ( Insurgency, Domination ) are great, but the PVP ( Warfare, Deathmatch ) work just as well, in COOP more people work together, yes its true. But in PVP your facing a mixture or enemies from the Noobies to the experienced ones unlike AI where they all have the same skill level.

[=VG= Jarema]

I agree with Hans and Semler.

My PvP experiences have never been as entertaining as my Co-oP.
In my opinion PvP has variables in it which I've already said I don't care for or choose to tolerate. I haven't consistently experienced those variables while playing Co-oP and for that reason plus =VG= I will always choose to play Co-oP opposed to PvP.

[Iffn]

In my opinion, CoOp is all about teamwork while pvp is just a "pwn the n00b, praise the pro" game mode.


This is easy to explain by looking on how to win a map in each game mode.

In CoOp, wining a map is overcoming a challenge by working together with your team while you fail when your team isn't good enough. In other games, you might say that loosing in CoOp is the fault of your n00bish team members, but due to the gameplay design in Project Reality and Arma 2, it is the fault of the pro when he isn't able to lead the n00bs. Badploy is a perfect example on how this should be done.

Meanwhile in pvp, wining the map can easily be explained by saying that your opposing team was consisting of n00bs or they didn't really want to play the map anyway. Since wining or loosing isn't what counts in PVP, a lot of people care about getting as many points or kills as possible without working on the overall victory of the team. I never played Call of Duty but as far as I know, it is the prime example of this principle raised to the high end.


However, I don't think shooting your friends in a game is a particularly bad thing to do. One of my best pvp experiences comes from our training server where we played with one squad of humans on each side. This means that you set your self your own goals and try to stop the enemy humans squad from achieving there goal while the bots are battling each other

[Ambumann]

Now, I have been away from online gaming for some weeks due to summer, and the only experience I have with PvP is from BF2 and CoD4. So I don?t feel like I have a say in this matter.
But what I want to share with you all, is that =VG=coop community is the main reason I started playing at =VG= servers.