Camping mains in PR CO-OP.

[Dr_Cyanide]

Hi all I got an issue that I would like to have resolved. I was playing on June 30th at ~1015EST and the map was Kashan and had Lamb2 and another guy in my squad. The server had about 10-12 people on it and the map started off and I took my small squad and made a B-line straight to my usual spot in the mountains overlooking approx 750m west the Bot Main with a TOW and an HMG. Two bradleys joined me about 200m north of my FOB. About 3 minutes into and having killed only an APC and a Havoc that was already airborne --RobotFungus hails me over the team chat and tells me to back off the main. We immediately stopped shooting and asked why? He said that we couldn't because it was camping and ruined the gameplay. I was in the middle of typing out a message about how the bunkers were going to be over run with T-72's when he gave me a second warning to back off. I immediately complied and backed off and said I didn't agree with him and I would take it to the forums. I was not kicked or banned. I request the chat logs from the incident be posted.
Now here's my issue!
I've been a player on VG PR CO-OP since atleast 2010, played many (maybe hundreds) of rounds on Kashan on the server, and that's been my usual thing to go ahead of the team and set up a fob to the kill tanks and allow the team to advance on the bunkers and the other flags. I've done this DOZENS OF TIMES! and I've never been told once before to back off the main until now. CO-OP PR Kashan has alot of tanks, and that's typically the hardest obstacle to overcome to win the map is the onslaught of a stream of T-72's. I don't agree with Robot Fungus's opinion that shooting tanks with a tow posted far away the MEC main hurts gameplay, especially when there is a low number of uncoordinated people on the server. I run a good squad up there and we do really good teamwork to keep our TOWS, HMG's and Hat's full of ammo and we always have a good time, I don't see what the problem is about having a FOB up there is, and don't agree with RobotFungus. I would like BludKlot or someone to make a formal ruling as to wether or not camping mains is allowed on the server and have it stated in the server rules if is.
-Thanks in advance.

[Robotfungus]

Ive always seen camping a mainbase to be bad gameplay, and anti-teamwork.

Killing assets as they spawn is very easy and takes away the fun from other players. In this instance I was on Anti-air duty, and was wondering why i wasnt seeing any planes to shoot down, i take a look at the map and see hes built a fob overlooking the mec mainbase.

This was happening while we where being overrun by infantry at north bunker and consequently lost the flag.

Killing assets as they spawn disrupts the "natural flow" of bot movement, and actually increases the amount of infantry on the ground since all their assets are dead, this makes gameplay more difficult for our guys who are actually trying to capture flags and play the game properly.

[Dr_Cyanide]

Robot, you've never been with me when I've built a fob there, we have really good team work on the squad level and I think that whackin' tanks with a TOW is a positive for teamwork and teamplay. I will add however the reason why you weren't seeing planes over your area is that they were busy trying bombing my TOW and the two Bradley APC's that came over to my position since we're the closest target when they spawn in. They got one of my APC's them as we were talking, and I was finding a place to set up my AA when you warned me about my FOB.
I seriously doubt you were really being overrun over there and and call your last statement mostly wrong because yes, killing them definitely disrupts their movement! (Go figure! they're fkin' dead!) Majority of the bots spawn on Kashan spawn in the APC's that are at the main, and when we kill 'em there! This reduces the number of bots in the bunkers! I just don't get why you've never called me on this before, because we've both played Kashan together before this and you've never complained about me building a fob there in the past!

[Robotfungus]

I dont care much for your justification for camping the mec mainbase. Especially when you call my statement wrong, and then go and contradict yourself. "killing them definitely disrupts their movement! (Go figure! they're fkin' dead!) Majority of the bots spawn on Kashan spawn in the APC's that are at the main, and when we kill 'em there! This reduces the number of bots in the bunkers!" - WRONG killing the apcs at the main INCREASES the bots at the bunkers, since they cant spawn in the apcs and move naturally to the bunkers.

But as i said i dont care much for your justification for camping the mec mainbase.

It is the principle of the matter that counts.

Such as no teamkilling, there is no excuse even when someone wronged you and you feel that its justified.

Such as no locked squads, once 1 person does it then we end up with a whole bunch of 1man locked squads, the rule is there for a reason.

Such as no camping main, so its ok for you and everyone else to camp the main for easy kills, then why bother making the effort to cap flags.

Just fight with your team for the cap of flags, and dont go off and camp for easy kills.

[ssgshilling]

I always believed that the area in the mountains between NB and SB (well away from the MEC main) to be a good area for lazing inf and emplacements. I do agree with Fungus, if you are camping near the MEC main with a visual of unmanned armor, you are disrupting the flow of game play. So, when there is no armor for the BOTs to spawn in they WILL spawn near the bunkers causing massive waves of enemy inf converging of flags that have been capped.

[suomikeizari]

Camping main is not so much a black and white issue, you have to take it into count that there were 10 people playing and mostly uncoordinated? right?
This makes the game into a meatgrinder where the BLUFOR gets their asses kicked again and again and again until the map is changed.
In my opinion camping should be allowed IF the S-bunker is captured and player count is below 15-20, otherwise only intel should be given from that camp.
In future this problem should be avoided entirely by voting/setting a new mission, no one likes meatgrinders, being dead is not fun m'kay.

Not going to go more into tactics in this one, as you have done so already.

[=VG= Meiz]

Doesn't this come under the following rule? The distance you mention is a little further out but it should still apply. I am not apart of VG though so i am not speaking on their behalf just my own opion.

NO RAPING MAINS UNTIL LAST FLAG!! (COOP MAINLY, BUT THIS APPLIES TO ALL, JUST DON'T DO IT.)

1. You willfully attack or lead the attack on the opposing (RBOT) teams main base or main spawn area before all previous flags have been captured, or block/divert the opposing (R-BOT) team by building deploy-able assets on any choke points within 500 meters of the opposing (R-BOT) teams main area before all previous flags are captured = WARN or KICK! (3rd Offense will get you BANNED!)

[suomikeizari]

True but the part that leaves some room in applying the rule is ''raping'', meaning that if all the enemies are not killed there, leaving proper amounts of the into the field, it is not raping.

Unfortunately we do not have video of the incident.

[Robotfungus]

The distance varies from map to map, kashan has the largest distances between flags / mains etc. It was my decision to enforce this rule and i stand by it.



Coop Server Rules

[=VG= SemlerPDX]

The only ones who could be within attacking and sighting distance from the MEC Main on Kashan and NOT be raping it would be forward observers - it's a term to mean camping the main base, not to determine a set number of bots raped per minute, or some other semantics. The rule is there for a reason, the admins warn/kick/ban for it, and it is a good thing.

Thank you, Robot.

And Cyanide, thanks for coming back and discussing it here - but please understand that the VG PR COOP Rules are not open for debate. Find another way, cap all the Flags at the other bases somehow, and then you are free to set up an FOB outside their airbase and lauch sidewinders all day at the helpless hordes.

Exceptions cannot be made for rules, i.e. 7 people are online, camping enemy main base, 3 join, 10 minutes later 5 join, etc. At what point are these new players going to know that the game isn't about camping and raping the bots at their main base? Rules that change depending on the number of players present will always just confuse and cause problems down the road. Hence the clear rules spelled out, as they have been for years and years.

And on that subject, it is just as bad when teams set up on the fortress in Mutrah City raping the bots as they flood out of their main - Cap the Flags! Play the game as it was designed - it's not that hard.

[=VG= SemlerPDX]

Dr_Cyanide LAN_WROTE ...

...I don't see what the problem is about having a FOB up there is, and don't agree with RobotFungus.
I would like BludKlot or someone to make a formal ruling as to wether or not camping mains is allowed on the server and have it stated in the server rules if is.
-Thanks in advance.

To be formal and official, the rule has been set in stone for years and reads:

NO RAPING MAINS UNTIL LAST FLAG!! (COOP MAINLY, BUT THIS APPLIES TO ALL, JUST DON'T DO IT.)

*the only shred of this rule that may have been different than this incident was "500 meters", as stated Kashan is massive compared to all the rest. Still, there is no way this incident could not be in violation of the entire spirit of the rule - to not affect the path of the bots from their Main to the Game.

Getting to set up a FOB outside the Kashan OPFOR Main Base is the end reward to a hard fought battle on Kashan - after all the flags are capped. If I were to roll out of BLUFOR Main with a group of friends in Tanks - I would desire to run into those enemy tanks that stream up the South Bunkers - if I found out that the reason I never saw any Tank on Tank action was the result of someone exploiting a position (particularly one that defies the VG PR COOP Rules as written) it would bother me and I would ask for an admin if I weren't one. New players may not know to ask, and not all exploited positions get noticed by admins, so it would persist unless someone brought it to their attention.

Robot may have not noticed you doing this before, Cyanide, but he did this time while wondering why his Avenger had no joy - I find Robot to be quite wise with regards to the how's and why's of PR, and he supported the rule properly by issuing a warning, and to direct the conversation/debate here to the forums. Camping MEC Main takes away targets from other players, who's to say that they want to fight just infantry and never shoot a single tank or APC - I feel bad for someone who humped in an HAT Kit only to find out that one small group is taking all the armor out before it even gets fielded....

Camping the MEC Main is the pudding - taking all the flags is the meat.

"If you don't eat your meat, you can't have any pudding! How can you have any pudding if you don't eat your meat?!?!"

This is what it's supposed to look like after all the flags are capped - the entire server camps the MEC Main and bombs the shit out of it with a JDAM (in this video, JDAM is called in by Dr. Cyanide in January 2011):
!2cool