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Where did the server's first machine gun go? I haven't seen it for a week or more, heard that it was banned (it's not surprising if it is)

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Unfortunate. When he wasn't raging, I enjoyed my time with Volod over these many years.

 

I must admit though, it was funny seeing Volod get mad because I understand all too well his anger. But his TKing, which I've been banned for myself, went too far.

 

RIP walking, talking machinegun.

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↑ same here.  Wish he would just make his Unban Request so the dialogue can begin, and he can be informed of what is expected and what will not be tolerated, and have a chance to change those things and move forward, water under the bridge.  Same with .SUGAR.

We all follow the same set of rules, and same thing would happen to anyone -- it is never personal.  Standards are standards.  We only issue such bans as a last resort, some people exhaust their warnings and force the hand of our Admins, and that's on them.  Without rules, we might as well all be up in the trees flinging our shit at each other.

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Maybe there should be a change in the rules for team killing; when a person takes something from you and they go unpunished it is reasonable to take what they took from you. The tk rules aren't as enforced as people want because I can name a lot of people, including admins who "accidentally" tk when someone is being disruptive. With the current rules in place you aren't allowed to do anything when an admin isn't around to act so all you can technically do is sit there and watch a guy ruin a match because intentional tks aren't allowed. The only difference between an admin killing someone and a regular player killing someone is a command; if there was a change in the rules to allow the reactive team killing then there should be a lower amount of people reporting and the quality of life in the server should improve since the problem will be dealt with in a quicker manner than just having a small group of people type a command. I'm not saying that you should allow all team killing but to allow it when it's clear in the chat and server logs that someone stole something, had the intent of ruining the game for someone or if an admin gives permission to team kill, which already happens. This is just an opinion and should be taken as a somewhat educated rambling.

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6 minutes ago, Big_Papa said:

I can name a lot of people, including admins who "accidentally" tk when someone is being disruptive.

then you should report them. especially if admins do that. why should an admin tk someone if he can use the kill command?

 

but you already have the best counterexample here why you can't allow int tks. everyone would use it and you can no longer find out whether it was misused or not. there are situations where it is annoying when assets are stolen or someone has tked you but solving that with revenge tks only makes things worse.

and you're right the difference is only this kill command ... but this is important. That's why not everybody is admin but only players who have shown that they follow the rules and can handle such situations. But on the other hand, an admin can't be everywhere and see everything.... it can also happen that some situations go unpunished. But over long or short, almost everyone who breaks regular rules will be punished as you can see from this thread.

but again: why should an admin "accidentally" tk someone if he can use !kill? if you observe this then make a report.

 

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12 minutes ago, =VG= 0100011000101 said:

then you should report them. especially if admins do that. why should an admin tk someone if he can use the kill command?

 

but you already have the best counterexample here why you can't allow int tks. everyone would use it and you can no longer find out whether it was misused or not. there are situations where it is annoying when assets are stolen or someone has tked you but solving that with revenge tks only makes things worse.

and you're right the difference is only this kill command ... but this is important. That's why not everybody is admin but only players who have shown that they follow the rules and can handle such situations. But on the other hand, an admin can't be everywhere and see everything.... it can also happen that some situations go unpunished. But over long or short, almost everyone who breaks regular rules will be punished as you can see from this thread.

but again: why should an admin "accidentally" tk someone if he can use !kill? if you observe this then make a report.

 

Well. You see the reason why we don't report tk that much because we either said that "meh it just a game" or "meh it just accident I think" or "meh he is a good guy he just fool around". To be fair I have been tk alot and sometimes I just ignore it. Sure it a bad thing but like we don't think much about it. But sometimes honestly it kind off reasonable, not to say it good or smt but it just..... Moral kick in I guess

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@Big_Papa I understand your point of view and getting a player to ruin a match is annoying, but we have a  dozen reasons not to allow teamkilling. We have the !R and !RP commands, TeamSpeak where you can find other admins, and you're very welcome to report players here on our forums. Proudly, I can say that the =VG= admin team looks into every report in detail and we will take appropriate action.

 

As to why teamkilling is out of the question:

 

  1. Teamkilling is extremely disrespectful and trolly in every way. Similar to punching your football teammate in the nose, you're incapacitating them from playing the game. Just like real violence has no place in any team, teamkilling can never have a place in ours.
  2. Admin !kills show up as admin kills, not a regular TK. They require a reason which is displayed when the !kill happens. Admins are trained and told to ONLY use the !kill command when necessary. This differentiates a 'licensed' kill from an illegal one.
  3. Perhaps the biggest one: If you teamkill a troll who wasn't teamkilling already, he will just go on a TK spree. If one player can do it, every one can and they will. Action = bigger reaction so if your helo gets stolen and you shoot him out of it, he'll probably be waiting with a SMAW at your helipad. It may seem like a doom-thinker scenario but you'd see full-on friendly fire wars very soon.
  4. Our admins are screened and briefed thoroughly. They have an admin guide to refer to and a lot of info in the PR admin-only forum section, so everyone is on the same line. Regular players are highly varied, some will TK for nothing, others will never do it anyway. Don't forget that every action you make can be taken as an example by someone else. This is why we have the zero-tolerance against TK. Any teamkill left unpunished/uninvestigated can be picked up by another player as a sign of 'hey, so this is ok to do'.
  5. Reactive teamkilling is hard to define. Like the point above, players will get into discussions quickly on 'Why could you TK but not me??' 'What have I done wtff??'. The team structure will quickly collapse.
  6. Teamkills show up in the logs without specific info. We don't have as much data as with a !kill command. Our log-sniffing work would increase tenfold to investigate all these cases.

 

Bottom line: Allowing teamkills is allowing chaos and disrespect. Vigilante justice in a server where people from all over the world, of all ages and all social groups come together is a recipe for disaster. To help us punish trolls and rulebreakers faster, you can do the following:

 

  1.  Report them using !r (report) and !rp (report player). Try to be precise in your report. In-game admins will see it pop up, but it also shows in our admin log files, giving us data to work with.
  2. If no admin is around and you need one, join our teamspeak at 5.9.23.136 or  ts3.veterans-gaming.com. PR admins will have a PR logo next to their name.
  3. You can report players here at our PR Player Report forum. Our forums are visited frequently every day by many members, so you will get a response quickly. 
  4. To provide further proof of a player's trolling, you can record them using screen capturing software like OBS, then send us a link to the video.

 

Hope this helps you in some way!

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48 minutes ago, =VG= 0100011000101 said:

then you should report them. especially if admins do that. why should an admin tk someone if he can use the kill command?

 

but you already have the best counterexample here why you can't allow int tks. everyone would use it and you can no longer find out whether it was misused or not. there are situations where it is annoying when assets are stolen or someone has tked you but solving that with revenge tks only makes things worse.

and you're right the difference is only this kill command ... but this is important. That's why not everybody is admin but only players who have shown that they follow the rules and can handle such situations. But on the other hand, an admin can't be everywhere and see everything.... it can also happen that some situations go unpunished. But over long or short, almost everyone who breaks regular rules will be punished as you can see from this thread.

but again: why should an admin "accidentally" tk someone if he can use !kill? if you observe this then make a report.

When you are in an atgm and a tank is blocking your line of sight then it is easier to kill it with the atgm than to type !kill (playername).
When someone punches your apc it is inappropriate to shoot them with your gun but this has happened
A noob is stealing your helicopter so it would be easier to shoot them out of the pilot seat than to type !kill (playername)
if your admins strictly adhere to the rules why do some tk a friend for fun

You may view these examples as lies but it doesn't matter if they are true. I will not provide names because I don't believe they should be banned.

People tk and "wars" do not happen because of the context of the tks; people aren't too stupid to realise that team killing isn't good.


 

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45 minutes ago, =VG= Acro1 said:

@Big_Papa I understand your point of view and getting a player to ruin a match is annoying, but we have a  dozen reasons not to allow teamkilling. We have the !R and !RP commands, TeamSpeak where you can find other admins, and you're very welcome to report players here on our forums. Proudly, I can say that the =VG= admin team looks into every report in detail and we will take appropriate action.

 

As to why teamkilling is out of the question:

 

  1. Teamkilling is extremely disrespectful and trolly in every way. Similar to punching your football teammate in the nose, you're incapacitating them from playing the game. Just like real violence has no place in any team, teamkilling can never have a place in ours.
  2. Admin !kills show up as admin kills, not a regular TK. They require a reason which is displayed when the !kill happens. Admins are trained and told to ONLY use the !kill command when necessary. This differentiates a 'licensed' kill from an illegal one.
  3. Perhaps the biggest one: If you teamkill a troll who wasn't teamkilling already, he will just go on a TK spree. If one player can do it, every one can and they will. Action = bigger reaction so if your helo gets stolen and you shoot him out of it, he'll probably be waiting with a SMAW at your helipad. It may seem like a doom-thinker scenario but you'd see full-on friendly fire wars very soon.
  4. Our admins are screened and briefed thoroughly. They have an admin guide to refer to and a lot of info in the PR admin-only forum section, so everyone is on the same line. Regular players are highly varied, some will TK for nothing, others will never do it anyway. Don't forget that every action you make can be taken as an example by someone else. This is why we have the zero-tolerance against TK. Any teamkill left unpunished/uninvestigated can be picked up by another player as a sign of 'hey, so this is ok to do'.
  5. Reactive teamkilling is hard to define. Like the point above, players will get into discussions quickly on 'Why could you TK but not me??' 'What have I done wtff??'. The team structure will quickly collapse.
  6. Teamkills show up in the logs without specific info. We don't have as much data as with a !kill command. Our log-sniffing work would increase tenfold to investigate all these cases.

 

Bottom line: Allowing teamkills is allowing chaos and disrespect. Vigilante justice in a server where people from all over the world, of all ages and all social groups come together is a recipe for disaster. To help us punish trolls and rulebreakers faster, you can do the following:

 

  1.  Report them using !r (report) and !rp (report player). Try to be precise in your report. In-game admins will see it pop up, but it also shows in our admin log files, giving us data to work with.
  2. If no admin is around and you need one, join our teamspeak at 5.9.23.136 or  ts3.veterans-gaming.com. PR admins will have a PR logo next to their name.
  3. You can report players here at our PR Player Report forum. Our forums are visited frequently every day by many members, so you will get a response quickly. 
  4. To provide further proof of a player's trolling, you can record them using screen capturing software like OBS, then send us a link to the video.

 

Hope this helps you in some way!

The report commands do not have immediate effect so they are only useful when someone reviews it and takes action against the reported person. When a player is civil enough to report then they have the decency to be able to think if it is suitable to kill the reported person or ignore them.

1: If you punch your friend then he can punch you back otherwise that would be unfair; when you are punched and you cannot legally punch back then that forces you into an unfair situation. Rules do not stop people from doing things, consequence stops people from doing things.

2: That is why I think it should be allowed to kill if you are killed with malicious intent. I know you can review chat logs and see what people say and it should be clear when 4 people say to 1 person "stop team killing or you will be banned" and then one person kills the person who was team killing others. The answer to #6 will also fit here.

3: If someone is stupid enough to go on a killing spree then it is the responsibility of everyone to kill them because they are killing others. Someone trolling without killing others is likely to not kill after they have been killed and told to stop because they would have started killing already.

4: I refer to my reply to Binary. Guidelines are guidelines and should not be taken as gospel.

5: If you kill someone when they have done nothing to you then that makes you the person who needs to be killed. If the loading screen says that if you kill randomly, others have the right to kill you then that should make people behave and not think of everyone as lambs for slaughter.

6: An idea would be to require a report before or after team killing to make it easier to find out what happened and if the report is a lie then others will report that person for team killing someone for nothing.

Just because people are from different cultures doesn't mean they don't believe in fairness.

 

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42 minutes ago, Big_Papa said:

When you are in an atgm and a tank is blocking your line of sight then it is easier to kill it with the atgm than to type !kill (playername).
When someone punches your apc it is inappropriate to shoot them with your gun but this has happened
A noob is stealing your helicopter so it would be easier to shoot them out of the pilot seat than to type !kill (playername)

of course it would be easier. but for the reasons acro already wrote everything would be more difficult in retrospect. moreover, an admin shouldn't be overwhelmed to use !kill, so far it doesn't matter if it would be easier...
if someone is in your line of fire you are not allowed to shoot. Point. This is different if someone runs into your line of fire while you are shooting. But if he was in the way before your shot, it's your fault.
and especially when stealing or wasting it makes sense that you shouldn't just tk, otherwise everyone would do it all the time and use the things you wrote as an excuse.

42 minutes ago, Big_Papa said:

if your admins strictly adhere to the rules why do some tk a friend for fun

42 minutes ago, Big_Papa said:

You may view these examples as lies but it doesn't matter if they are true. I will not provide names because I don't believe they should be banned.

if so, we need more information. preferably the !r function. date, time, map and things like that would also help.
but without this, it's just hearsay. I do not want to say that you are lying, but admins must also follow the rules and if you observe such breaches, report them.
you should also be aware that you can't do much with "somebody tked someone sometime".
but isn't that the best example that you shouldn't do it the same way that every tk is allowed? otherwise it would be much worse than now...

42 minutes ago, Big_Papa said:

I will not provide names because I don't believe they should be banned.

then we can do nothing but a revenge-tk at this point would not make it better.

 

//Edit: you edited your post while i replied ^^

but you can still break it down to a line:
even if you are right with what you wrote, a revenge tk would not make things better but worse.

//Edit2: my browser make nonsense...you dont edited it, you wrote a second. dont know whats wrong on my side...^^

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1 hour ago, Big_Papa said:

When you are in an atgm and a tank is blocking your line of sight then it is easier to kill it with the atgm than to type !kill (playername).
When someone punches your apc it is inappropriate to shoot them with your gun but this has happened
A noob is stealing your helicopter so it would be easier to shoot them out of the pilot seat than to type !kill (playername)

Easier, but sending a horrible signal to all players around. A TK is a TK, and we'll get a swarm of reports with contradicting information which will eventually lead to nothing but confusion. I admire your idea of general human decency, but in reality this is just not the case. False reports will happen, reasons will be mistaken, and admins will be overwhelmed.

1 hour ago, Big_Papa said:

if your admins strictly adhere to the rules why do some tk a friend for fun

I don't know, which is why we would like to investigate these claims. Without proof or information to work with, we cannot accept them as true. 

1 hour ago, Big_Papa said:

People tk and "wars" do not happen because of the context of the tks; people aren't too stupid to realise that team killing isn't good

I'm willing to believe that you and some others would be capable, but this most certainly does not apply to everyone.

1 hour ago, Big_Papa said:

You may view these examples as lies but it doesn't matter if they are true. I will not provide names because I don't believe they should be banned.

Then we will end this discussion here.

Intentional teamkilling by weapon/vehicle is a heavy offence, it's disrespectful and cannot be allowed as a tool to regulate the server, for it would cause more chaos and give our admins 10x more work to keep rotten apples in check. It would be abused from the very start, lightly and heavily.

I appreciate your point of view and it certainly helps us to look from different perspectives. Note though, that this is a matter which we have many years of experience with. Rules surrounding teamkilling stay in place, period.

 

Let us now end this discussion, as it will not lead us anywhere worthwhile. The matter is clear and concluded :) .

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Volod is a good example of HOW NOT TO. He was warned more than 2 or 3 times and in my point of view 2 warnings were more than enough.

I for one banned him once for intentional teamkilling but also decided it was a mistake since he tried, that day, to protect the other guys on the server from a dude that started a rampage just when i came online, thus ending in both geting a ban. But this does not make him an angel! He did teamkill right in front of me and that is no excuse. (also i mistook his name for the other guy who had  similar numbers in the name and left the server just when i pressed enter but still i would have banned both directly)

Like Acro said no way we are going to change this rule, teamkilling even if there is no admin online is NOT PERMITED!

We have discord, teamspeak, forums, EVEN THE INGAME !r command. Those are more powerful than a tk.

So, what? You tk the guy and he comes back to take revenge because you provoked him... And then what? Start a war? Fine have it like that, bring the whole server with you against one guy that trolls for fun? Some are there to play the game not to have your fights... I ve seen this and please dont say it didnt happen even though is rare. And all above is in general it doesnt mean that a certain person is to balme.

Sorry Acro for continuing but i felt like i needed to discharge!

 

 

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6 hours ago, Big_Papa said:

You may view these examples as lies but it doesn't matter if they are true. I will not provide names because I don't believe they should be banned.

We don't ban people for these things, we talk to them and give them an opportunity to correct their behavior.  We are NOT on some mission searching for worthy people to ban, just waiting for that legitimate reason to drop the hammer!

Our first and foremost goal as Admins at VG in any server we run is to correct behavior to re-establish order on the server.  These are not platitudes, but a core principle we constantly train and reinforce in our Admins.  Only in severe cases does this involve a direct and immediate ban - and often the case is a matter of a warning, a kick (or kill if appropriate such as the asset theft you mentioned), and finally a ban if all those chances given are exhausted by the player.  We share this information between each other in a forum section here you cannot see, and in that forum are names and discussions about players and the best way to deal with them, often with our PR Admins stating that they do not wish to ban X player but need to have other Admins watch to be sure it is not required, when previous warnings, kicks, etc. may seem to have little effect.  So not only do we extend the benefit of the doubt in-game during gameplay, but outside it as well where we take additional factors into consideration including cultural/language barriers, age groups and/or maturity level as appropriate to our younger crowd, and history of behavior over time on the VG Server(s).

If there are legit Admins who are using their powers to abuse players, they will either be retrained (up to and including diminished PR Admin command access such as no ability to ban, etc., to be earned back or not) unless it is clearly obvious that their behavior will not change, and only as a final resort do we remove a PR Admin (or ban them) from our server.  That last bit has only happened 4 times in 10 years across hundreds of player Admins and VG Admins here.

So, @Big_Papa when you assume our course of action for us, and you withhold information that may help us improve the behavior of our PR Admins, you are essentially allowing these things to happen, fostering these unfair and unacceptable activities, and allow them to persist by not requesting that such persons should be investigated by the Administration here at VG.  Luckily, you're not the only one playing on the server, so even if you clam up out of some misplaced sense of righteousness, eventually some player will let us know if one of our PR Admins is not upholding the standards we set forth in our =VG= PR Admins Guide and the training we have drilled into them.

:hi:

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke

Edited by =VG= SemlerPDX
edited some bits for reasons
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I've personally never seen a moderator of VG ever TK anyone for the simple reason that it's easier to shoot them than to !kill them. Never. I do not agree with some if the above. The rules should remain as they are.

 

TKing should always be strictly forbidden.

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1. Admins are given a "privilege" to enforce the rules not because of their relationship with head admins or the amount of money they donated to the clan, but because they have a baseline behavior of following the rules in a consistent basis.

If an admin teamkills someone, that person needs to apologize and do his best not to let that happen again. Having an admin privilege doesn't mean they will be given a special treatment while others will be disciplined according to the rules. I've been warned and kicked by another admin before, and I do not hold grudge against the people because it is a result of my own action.

Admins represent the best of =VG= community, and they need to be held to a higher standard.

 

2. Volod's been given more than few opportunities to correct his behavior, and multiple admins already gave him a verbal warning, including myself. If he refuses to come here and face the consequences, then that's his choice and he will not be allowed to play on =VG= server anymore. Sure, we all enjoy his company because of his skills and unintentional humor, but that doesn't mean he will be given a special privilege.

 

3. Revenge teamkill is not allowed, regardless of what the circumstances were, period.

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